Geoff’s Narrations
The GIST
The Blog
The Gist is on the lower right
And now for another controversial post… 🙂 A preprint of the Yale Akiko Iwasaki/Harlan Krumholz post-vaccination syndrome study, “Immunological and Antigenic Signatures Associated with Chronic Illnesses after COVID-19 Vaccination“, was recently published.
Over 100 million people have engaged in vaccine trials worldwide…
(Image by torstensimon from Pixabay )
Vaccine blogs draw a lot of heat, but please note that comments touting conspiracy theories will not be allowed. Nor will comments asserting that vaccines are responsible for everything under the sun. We’re not going down those rabbit holes again.
Vaccine Studies
Let’s get some study evidence out of the way.
The fact that coronavirus vaccinations reduce the risk of long COVID is not in doubt. A meta-analysis of 25 studies involving 14 million people concluded that 1 and 2 vaccinations were associated with a 15% and 24% reduction in the risk of coming down with long COVID after a coronavirus infection.
Nor is the fact that the coronavirus vaccines saved many lives in doubt. Across the world, over 100 million people have participated in coronavirus vaccine trials. By Nov 2022, the U.S. has administered more than 655 million doses to US residents, which, a modeling study estimated, saved more than 18 million additional hospitalizations, more than 3 million additional deaths, and $1.15 trillion in additional medical costs.
Nor should anyone question whether the vaccines also caused problems, at times. The authors noted that rare adverse events, such as myocarditis and pericarditis, thrombosis and thrombocytopenia, Guillain–Barre syndrome, transverse myelitis, and Bell’s Palsy were associated with vaccination.
How rarely did these conditions crop up? Very, very rarely (myocarditis (usually minor) 4.8 cases per 1 million doses; Bell’s Palsy – 25.3 per 1,000,000 doses; thrombosis – 0.21 cases per 1 million; Guillian-Barre – 32.4 per 100,000 person-years (Jansennen vaccine); transverse myelitis – 1.82 cases per million vaccine doses). The fact that vaccine studies picked these rare conditions up at all is a testament to how effective they were at picking up diseases the medical system is tracking. In every case, having a coronavirus infection places a person at risk of contracting these diseases more than a coronavirus vaccination does.
On the other hand, it’s clear that the studies have been very poor at picking up people with what is now called “post-vaccination syndrome” (PVS). PVS appears, symptom-wise, to be a dead ringer for ME/CFS and long COVID (exercise intolerance, excessive fatigue, numbness, brain fog, neuropathy, insomnia, palpitations, myalgia, tinnitus or humming in ears, headache, burning sensations, and dizziness). The fact that PVS hasn’t shown up in post-vaccine studies only demonstrates that you can’t find what you’re not looking for.
A big question that will be difficult to answer – given how many people were also infected with the virus – is how many people have post-vaccination syndrome.
Immune System Tweak
The authors suggested several ways that tweaking the immune system to protect against the virus can, in some people, cause symptoms identical to the virus.
The different components found in vaccines, “mRNA, lipid nanoparticles, and adenoviral vectors”, could be activating the pattern recognition receptors, which trigger the early, or innate, immune response. The spike protein could trigger symptoms. Referencing Dr. Patterson’s work, the authors noted that non-classical monocytes of some people with PVS had been shown to contain the S protein. Plus, in animals the protein has been shown to cross the blood-brain barrier. Finally, the immune responses triggered by the vaccine could produce an autoimmune reaction.
The Study
The small study took a deep dive into the “immunophenotypic profiles” (circulating immune cell populations, antibody responses, circulating immune modulator levels, spike protein) in 42 people with PVS and 22 healthy controls who had been vaccinated.
One possible confounder was that tests revealed that 27/42 people with post-vaccination syndrome had also been exposed to the coronavirus at some point. Most PVS patients, however, reported reacting to the vaccine within 10 days, so it’s assumed that their reaction was to the vaccine. Some of the immune findings could, however, result from a coronavirus infection.
Results
Not surprisingly the study found that the health status of the PVS patients was “far below” the normal and they reported a lower quality of life. The most common symptoms were excessive fatigue (85%), tingling and numbness (80%), exercise intolerance (80%), brain fog (77.5%), difficulty concentrating or focusing (72.5%), trouble falling or staying asleep (70%), neuropathy (70%), muscle aches (70%), anxiety (65%), tinnitus (60%) and burning sensations (57.5%).
Once again, B-cells were not getting activated. Could ME/CFS, long COVID, and PVS start here?
Unswitched Memory B-Cells
The finding that the proportions of unswitched memory B cells (US memory B cells; CD19+/CD27+/IgD+) were significantly higher (p= 0.02) in the PVS patients was intriguing given similar findings in ME/CFS.
Nath’s intramural study found higher levels of naïve (immature) B-cells and decreased numbers of mature memory B-cells. Nath proposed that the high levels of immature B-cells might constitute “the primary defect” in ME/CFS, potentially leading to immune exhaustion and activation of innate immune responses.
Thus far, the T and B-cell findings in ME/CFS point to problems with energy production. Could ME/CFS be ahead of the game regarding T and B-cell failings?
T-Cell Exhaustion
The “reduced CD4+ T cell subsets in circulation and an increased percentage of TNFα+ CD8 T cells”, plus higher levels of exhausted CD8 (cytotoxic) T-cells, again seems reminiscent of findings in ME/CFS and long COVID. The increased percentages of the cytotoxic T-cell subset suggests that the T-cell exhaustion is driven by chronic activation by a virus or pieces of a virus.
Increased Classical Monocytes
Reduced cDC2 cells and increased levels of non-classical monocytes suggest an impaired immune response to the virus, chronic inflammation, particularly in the blood vessels, and an increased risk of autoimmunity. The activation of classical monocytes plays a key role in Bruce Patterson’s hypothesis of long COVID-19.
A Bruce Patterson Interlude
Bruce Patterson MD raised a lot of interest – and controversy – when he went on a social media tour in 2020/2021 claiming that he knew what caused long COVID, had developed tests to diagnose it, and a protocol to treat it. Time will tell how right Patterson was about all that, but it should be noted that his hypothesis – that an overactive innate immune system that is attempting to compensate for T and B-cell deficiencies – is very similar to what Nath and others have proposed.
Bruce Patterson MD (with Health Bio) has begun a large long COVID clinical trial.
Patterson found atypically long-lived classical monocytes carrying the spike protein in long COVID, and very early on proclaimed that post-vaccination syndrome was happening. Patterson also highlighted herpesvirus reactivation and asserted that other pathogens (Lyme disease) were also becoming reactivated. Patterson’s Aug 2024 paper used machine learning and cytokine findings to differentiate chronic Lyme disease from long COVID.
Two weeks ago, Patterson and his company, HealthBio (formerly IncellDx) put their money where their mouth was when they announced they’d begun a massive phase III, 32-week randomized, 252-patient, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multicenter trial assessing the effectiveness of Patterson’s protocol (Selzentry (maraviroc) and Lipitor (atorvastatin)) in long COVID.
Patterson may not be all over social media anymore—drawing attention and criticism for his provocative findings—but HealthBio is certainly not holding back about how earth-shattering it believes its findings are. The HealthBio website states that “HealthBio has discovered the root cause and solution for diagnosing and treating chronic inflammatory diseases,” including ME/CFS, post-treatment Lyme disease, and fibromyalgia.
EBV Reactivation Found
The GIST
- A preprint of the Yale Akiko Iwasaki/Harlan Krumholz post-vaccination syndrome study, “Immunological and Antigenic Signatures Associated with Chronic Illnesses after COVID-19 Vaccination“, was recently published.
- Vaccine blogs draw a lot of heat, but please note that comments touting conspiracy theories will not be allowed. Nor will comments asserting that vaccines are responsible for everything under the sun.
- Over 100 million people have participated in vaccine studies worldwide and the results are pretty clear. Coronavirus vaccines have saved many lives, prevented many hospitalizations, and are protective against long COVID. In very rare cases, they increase the risk of developing some diseases, but coronavirus infections increase the risk of contracting these diseases more.
- The vaccine studies, however, have been very poor at picking up signs of what is now called “post-vaccination syndrome” or PVS whose symptoms are a close match to those found in long COVID, ME/CFS and fibromyalgia. We simply don’t know how many people have PVS.
- This 42-person study delved deep into the immune systems of people with PVS. Several findings—a lack of B-cell maturation, T-cell exhaustion, increased classical monocyte levels, Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) reactivation, and a persistent spike protein—appeared to mimick findings in long COVID and/or ME/CFS.
- A familiar theme of innate immune system activation attempting to compensate for the failure of the T and B cells to fight off the virus seemed to emerge.
- While not all PVS patients had the spike protein, in some cases, it was still present over two years after infection – suggesting the protein may still be tweaking their immune systems. Much work is underway better to understand viral persistence’s role in long COVID.
- Greater reactivity to Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) proteins associated with cytotoxic T-cell activation suggested that EBV reactivation was tweaking the PVS patients’ immune systems as well. Therefore, either of the viruses could be causing or contributing to the symptoms found in long COVID-19.
- The classical monocyte finding seemed to echo Bruce Patterson’s findings of two years ago. Patterson and his company Health Bio recently began a large phase III clinical trial of their approach to long COVID.
- A machine learning approach, which found that hormones and neuropeptides associated with stress response, pain-detecting nerves, and immune activation were associated with PVS, brought more similarities to ME/CFS, FM, and long COVID.
- The Yale team received heat from traditionalists and vaccine conspiracists. Traditionalists didn’t want to hear about PVS right now, given RFK Jr.’s ascension to a leadership position, and vaccine conspiracy theorists got a boost from Elon Musk, who, despite the fact that long COVID predated the coronavirus vaccines, tweeted that “they are finally admitting “Long COVID” is just vaccine injury.”
- While small, this study was good news for anyone with post-coronavirus vaccination syndrome or any kind of post-viral vaccination syndrome (PVS).
- Getting results similar to those found in long COVID and/or ME/CFS suggested that finding an answer to those diseases will also help people with PVS
Next, the researchers want to see if the PVS patients’ immune systems were more activated against proteins found on EBV’s outer envelope. EBV uses both these proteins (EBV gp42, EBV gp350) to bore into and infect B-cells. Increased antibody levels against both of these proteins suggested the PVS patients were fighting off EBV reactivation. (Vaccines to block EBV gp350 are being studied.)
A positive correlation between PVS patients with greater antibody reactivity to gp42 and increased TNFα-producing CD8+ T-cells suggested that EBV reactivation was indeed turning on the T-cells (which were becoming exhausted).
Spike Protein Shows Up
A lot of attention is being focused on the spike protein (red appendages)…
The coronavirus vaccines introduce the spike protein – the part of the coronavirus that infects cells – in different ways. mRNA vaccines (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) deliver instructions to the immune system to produce it. The Johnson and Johnson vaccine modifies the virus so that it tells cells to produce the protein and Novovax directly introduces the spike protein.
There are many reasons vaccine makers have focused on this particular protein: it allows the coronavirus to infect the cells, it’s easy to target, antibodies to it can neutralize the virus, etc.
The authors stated that perhaps the most notable finding was elevated levels of spike (S1 and full-length S) up to 709 days after vaccination among a subset with PVS, even in those with no evidence of detectable SARS-CoV-2 infection. This was a bit surprising because, by 14 days, the spike protein is usually undetectable, but it does fit with Bruce Patterson’s findings of the spike protein in non-classical monocytes long after vaccination (or infection).
Of course, the idea that the long-term persistence of the spike protein might trigger symptoms via inflammation and blood clotting in long-term COVID-19 is not new.
As we’ve seen in long COVID – not everyone with PVS had high S1 levels. Still, as a group, the PVS group had higher S1 levels than a long-COVID group the researchers tested.
Predicting Post-Vaccination Syndrome
A machine learning approach suggested that the hormones (hypothalamus, pituitary glands) and neuropeptides associated with stress response and pain-detecting nerves (oxytocin, neurotensin, ꞵ endorphin, melanocyte-stimulating hormones (MSH), substance P) were negatively associated with PVS.
Signs of EBV reactivation and immune activation (anti-EBV gp42 IgG titers, MMP1 levels, and TNFɑ+ CD8 T cells) were positively associated with the PVS.
Controversy
Doing a post-vaccination syndrome study was bound to upset both traditionalists and conspiracy theorists…
Knowing that the findings would be controversial (and misinterpreted), the authors emphasized the small study size and the need for replication and validation. Iwasaki even noted that it was too early to differentiate meaningful results from random fluctuations in the data. Some lambasted Iwasaki and Krumholz for even doing the study, given the anti-vaccine movement and, now, RFK Jr.’s ascension to a leadership position.
Dr. Iwasaki called it “the first kind of glimpse” at what was going on in post-vaccination syndrome, and pledged more studies to come.
The misinterpretations and over-reactions came quickly. Elon Musk did his credibility no good when, ignoring the fact that long COVID appeared long before the vaccines were available, he told his 218 million followers on X.com that “they are finally admitting “Long COVID” is just vaccine injury“. STAT News reported that Iwasaki said, “Oh, no! Really?”, when told of that.
This isn’t the first time that Musk has been way off with COVID-19. Musk referred to the coronavirus as a “specific form of the common cold”, stated that “the coronavirus panic is dumb”, and predicted that there would be “close to zero new cases” in the US by the end of April 2020. He also bet podcaster Sam Harris $1 million that the US would not exceed 35,000 COVID-19 cases. (As of Feb 2025, over 110 million coronavirus cases had been confirmed (and the total is likely much greater).)
Conclusion
While small, this study was good news for anyone with post-coronavirus vaccination syndrome or any kind of post-viral vaccination syndrome (PVS). PVS has been an issue in ME/CFS for decades, but it took over 100 million American vaccinations for a few researchers to start taking it seriously. (The next vaccine studies—when and wherever they occur—should include PVS in their assessments.) Thankfully, this study came from a highly respected Yale research team led by Akiko Iwasaki.
It was very good to see findings broadly similar to those found in long COVID and ME/CFS pop up. The increased number of unswitched B-cells and classical monocytes, the T-cell exhaustion and EBV reactivation all seemed to parallel findings in long COVID and/or ME/CFS. A familiar theme of innate immune system compensation for a failure of the T and B-cells to fight off the virus seemed to show itself.
Finding evidence of the spike protein in some cases two years post-infection in some PVS patients also fit with long-COVID findings suggesting that pieces of the virus may still be activating the immune system, and a great deal of work is investigating this possibility.
The classical monocyte finding also seemed to echo Bruce Patterson’s findings of two years ago. It also brought to mind Grisham’s unexpected finding suggesting that monocytes play a key role in ME/CFS. Patterson’s company HealthBio recently began a large multicenter trial of Patterson’s protocol in long COVID.
A machine learning approach, which found that hormones and neuropeptides associated with stress response, pain-detecting nerves, and immune activation were associated with PVS, brought more similarities to ME/CFS, FM, and long COVID.
Getting results similar to those found in long COVID and/or ME/CFS suggested that finding an answer to those diseases will also help people with PVS. While bigger studies are needed, the PVS research field got itself off to a good start with this one.
Lol, you used “Elon Musk” and “credibility” in the same sentence. Dude’s had none ever since he called the Thai president a pedo for not using Musk’s submarine to rescue those kids trapped in the cave.
Also though, I wonder if the is any connection between his complete misunderstanding of long Covid / PVS and the recent removal of long Covid from govt websites? And what damage will the echoes of this logic-defying decision have on public health?
I have no idea why long COVID was targeted in this way. I do not agree with but I can see how terminating the Committee fit into the drive to save funds – altho the Committee cost almost nothing – but why remove long COVID disability information?
Someone, over there, was clearly targeting long COVID.
Thank you for writing a measured article about this, which can’t have been easy.
I wondered what if people had asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections and so didn’t know they had ever had COVID. Prof. Akiko Iwasaki tweeted about the study: “We used two separate assays to measure anti-nucleocapsid antibodies to determine individuals who had evidence of SARS2 infection. However, these assays may have missed asymptomatic infection that occurred a long time ago. We never mention causality”
It is definitely good that someone studied this and I hope it leads to larger studies looking at possibility of causality between the vaccines and long COVID. But I hope for now people stay objective and neutral, and don’t let their personal convictions and biases swing their opinion either way. This study hasn’t proven any causality. It also HASN’T disproven it. It is simply a good first step towards the truth.
I really liked the apparent (if I understood correctly) similarities between the findings regarding ME/CFS and long COVID-19. That seemed like really good news to me.
My partner has been experiencing symptoms with exception of neurophysiology but gone from an active 63 year old to a man who cannot be out doing any physical work for longer than 30 minutes ,he walks like he is drunk no balance but fatigue. Beyond just being tired,he has had various tests fortunately one picked up triple vessel diseas wirh no symptoms so he has had triple bypass Nov 2024,respons to post bypass exercise has been terrible getting worse.waiting on a neurologist consult not till June,also has raised platelets not related but underwent bone marrow biopsy waiting genetic testing he had three vaccines the last 30th March 2023 no effects post vaccine,he had covid 19 in 2022.to find this study and results is heartening but what now is there any studies in Australia?
It’s so important to cover things like this and be open minded to reading these studies and then have civil conversations and discussions. As someone who got Covid the same week I was vaccinated, I will never be able to untangle these events. I hope research into both areas helps everyone.
I am post vaccine syndrome. I had my second dose of Pfizer Jan.29,2021 and developed Neuro symptoms….within 2 months I woke up unable to walk. I felt like I was drugged and someone was pushing me over from my right side. I had to hold onto the walls and countertops. While brushing my teeth to go to ER, my heart was pounding out of my chest. I sat down before I passed out. My HR was 165. Long story short, I have partial Dysautonomia neuropathic. POTS.
I also was diagnosed with CFS and FM. The last two were diagnosed within the first year after POTS diagnosis. I am a Nurse for 30 years and haven’t worked since April 2021. Tried 9 different meds, supplements. You all know Ive tried multiple treatment modalities because we are on the same path. Because my POTS is neuropathic, exercise helps. And with CFS…ain’t happening. FM pain….ain’t happening. Next treatment option from my specialist at University of Toledo is Plaquenil. He believes it may be autoimmune causing my POTS. He also said it may be auto inflammatory. Or mixed. So…..I’m going to take it. He said the have seen good results with Long COVID. I was his first post COVID vaccine POTS and I gave my blood for his study. It’s double blinded so I will never know the results of my specimen. I’ve read the study in the article and am thankful they are getting information out about those of us whom were kicked off social media and called anti vaccine. Wouldn’t have gotten the shot if I was. My position at work didn’t require it and I was in the first group of healthcare worker getting it…..voluntarily. I wanted protection from the virus. And I believed that I was doing my part. I was giving the vaccines in a health department Countywide site and was exposed to hundreds of people each day. My first COVID infection was last summer ‘24. I had evaded this thing for a long time and I know it’s everywhere all the time. It was a matter of time. And I actually faired well. I just had a recent virus upper respiratory cold, and I didn’t get horribly flared. My body was fighting off a new invader and maybe stopped attacking itself. Who knows. Thats my story. Do I have regrets….sometimes I do but who knows how I would’ve fared had I gotten a COVID infection before vaccination during the first round. My brother didn’t do so well. Hospitalized and on oxygen for a week. He has some lung damage and fatigue. His joints ache. My specialist asked what my brother’s symptoms were and I told him. I asked are you looking into genetics being indicator of severity? He said yes. I was way healthier than my brother. I ran three days a week, lifted two and did yoga in between. I was in my best physical shape at age 50!!!
Even after all these years the stories of what people go through continue to just floor me….
Looking back it seems you made all the right decisions…Very glad you got in the study and the genetics aspect is really intriguing. The paper noted that the PVS patients may been genetically predisposed to get ill. Since the studies are continuing, I imagine that they’ll look at that. A blog on genetics and these diseases is coming up.
I was diagnosed with ME/CFS in 2007 with a later additional diagnosis of fibromyalgia.
I was able to manage to have a (mostly) normal life. I was anxious about getting Covid-19 and so took advantage of the vaccines as soon as they were available in Australia. I was OK after the 2 AZ shots but after the third shot which was Moderna mRNA, I suffered a worsening of symptoms and severe pain. After c.6 months, the pain reduced to previous levels. It would be interesting to see if there are differences in vaccination injury between people who were healthy beforehand and those of us with ME/CFS, fibromyalgia etc.
I am less interested in the Iwasaki study, and more interested in the Patterson trial. I am hesitant to get hopes up, given past trial failures, but who knows maybe this might fly?
Good on him for trying
What excites me about the trial is how much data Patterson already has. In 2021 I wrote he was part of a large network (@150 doctors) and cohort going (13,000 long haulers, 1,000 post-vaccination long haulers, 500 post-Lyme, 100-200 ME/CFS, 50-100 fibromyalgia). That gives him potentially lots of data to work with.
The fact that he’s going to trial suggests he’s pretty confident he’s going to get some good results.
Whether 100 million people have been vaccinated or not, it says nothing about the 5-year line, there are so many variables that have not been included in those studies, such as the different types of the corona virus over the last few years. The vaccine was aimed at the first variant, just like with flu, you should always keep an eye on vaccination because every time there is a new variant. The success with corona is due to the new omicron variant, which is why it is now under control, which has nothing to do with vaccination against the original variant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLE3iVOJQp4
I know you Gijs – you are always going to find something! By why do you need four year studies – when all the other studies haven’t indicated that anything. by and large, (not counting the PVS group) was amiss? As the coronavirus mutated the vaccines changed – I dont think there’s any mystery about that – and yes, studies indicate that the current vaccines are protective against hospitalization and death.
Vaccine effectiveness (VE) against COVID-19-associated emergency department or urgent care visits was 33% among adults aged ≥18 years2.
For immunocompetent adults aged ≥65 years, VE against COVID-19-associated hospitalization ranged from 45% to 46%2.
Among immunocompromised adults aged ≥65 years, VE against hospitalization was 40%2.
That said, the vaccines effectiveness drops signficantly after six months.
But vaccines can still be important because past infections with the coronavirus are no longer considered protective.
A study suggests that post-Omicron COVID-19 infection no longer grants long-lasting immunity, with protection dropping from 78% at 3-6 months to just 5% by one year after infection1.
The big takeaway for me is try not to get infected in the first place. I’m still masking up in crowded places.
After the infection you build up excellent immunity. This is comparable to the immunity after vaccination.
The researchers found that antibodies disappear from the blood after three to six months, but that does not necessarily mean that you are susceptible to corona infections again. That’s only part of the story. Even if you can no longer detect antibodies in the blood sample, the body can quickly produce them again thanks to the memory cells. These contain the code for the necessary antibodies. Moreover, we can also count on cellular immunity, which may last longer.
Rydyznski Moderbacher C, Ramirez SI, Dan JM, Grifoni A, Hastie KM, Weiskopf D, et al. Antigen-specific adaptive immunity to SARS-CoV-2 in acute COVID-19 and associations with age and disease severity. Cell 2020. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2020.09.038
Cort, I applaud the author’s scientific approach (and yours) in the presentation of this research.
While the in-depth science of the specific biochemical abnormalities (and their consequences) is beyond my rudimentary understanding of biochemistry, it seems reasonable that;
1) “Something” (such as a virus) up-regulates the immune response (perhaps beyond a certain level, or perhaps in a particular way).
2) In genetically predisposed individuals, their (perhaps inadequate) immune response remains engaged until exhaustion (and changes our genetic immune response through epigenics in the process – to lock us in an abnormal “inadequate but never ending” immune response – with a long list of direct and secondary symptoms).
3) If the above is true, then a vaccine that activates/up-regulates our immune response (to a degree, in order to work) could be expected to trigger this same cascade of persisting symptoms (of Long Covid, and/or CFS) – in a subset of individuals who are genetically predisposed to this cascade of events being triggered even by a relatively small (or particular type of) immune system challenge.
4) If this were the case, then it could explain how the vaccines alone could trigger Long Covid or CFS type symptoms in a subset of individuals – BUT not at the same level as catching Covid itself (or other significant viral infections) – which would up-regulate the immune response much further.
On an unrelated matter, I hope that the current controversial political environment does not attempt to trivialize, dismiss or deny the existence of Long Covid for political ends. I would consider that a major set-back for Long Covid as well as CFS/Fibro research and treatment progress. It may also delay breakthroughs in other diseases where the same or a similar immune dysfunction may be involved in keeping the symptoms chronic.
”Finding evidence of the spike protein in some cases two years post-infection in some PVS patients also fit with long-COVID findings suggesting that pieces of the virus may still be activating the immune system, and a great deal of work is investigating this possibility.”
That comes because off the vaccines mRNA after2 years your body can still produce these spikes. That was not the intention
https://news.yale.edu/2025/02/19/immune-markers-post-vaccination-syndrome-indicate-future-research-directions
That is certainly the possibility – I would imagine it’s a good possibility! – that in some people with PVS their systems are still, for some reason, producing the spike protein – causing the immune system is continuing to react to it – hence the continuing symptoms. I wonder if there’s a way to tell if that’s happening…That would seem to be a great candidate for a study.
That fits a general theme, that whether you have PVS or ME/CFS or long COVID, something is continuing to activate the immune system leaving people in a chronic state of “sickness behavior”; i.e. flu-like symptoms.
You know what’s fascinating is that vaccinations can cause long covid but can also prevent it according to some studies. And to make it even crazier, some patients with ME/CFS or long covid feel better after a vaccination and other ones gets sicker.
Anyone who still sees the logic here can say so 🙂 I think i give up Cort 🙂
Thank you Cort for the intro paragraphs and “Vaccine Studies” paragraph. That is the most concise and factual paragraph I think I’ve ever seen on the Internet. The info on PVS and EBV are hopeful as well. Maybe someday…
I think it’s something that must be looked at, and am glad it’s being evaluated – what would be most helpful is if researchers can find factors the predict who is likely to experience PVS if possible to know whether they need modified forms of vaccinations. Of course this will be immediate fodder for all the conspiracy theorists but hopefully it doesn’t make researchers shy away from it.
Right – those are the kind of studies that people with ME/CFS – a subset of whom have had problems with vaccinations – have been looking for for years.
I’m pro vaccine due to the amount of disease and suffering they have prevented globally. However I do think some vaccines are a tad too powerful for some vulnerable people’s immune systems.
For example, one of the lead authors of the Pfizer vaccine trial was reported in ‘Forbes’ proudly stated that they had created “a more robust immune response” from their Covid vaccine than from the initial Covid infection itself. (note: meaning the initial stage, not the later inflammatory stage of acute Covid).
Since then the prestigious Journal ‘Cell’ reported in March 2022 researchers found prolonged spike protein levels and even mRNA in the blood and germinal centers (lymph nodes)
The authors were a collaboration from several reputable research centers like Stanford. Interestingly they found mRNA and spike protein antigen up to 8 weeks after vaccine injection (in I presume healthy people). The study stopped at 8 weeks, and we now know these molecules still hang around even longer. Although important to note healthy people aren’t noticing health issues. And also that the levels were diminishing each time they will measured.
But also important to get to the bottom of the issue, as Post Vaccination Syndrome isn’t new.
There’s plenty of people with ME/CFS who had the disease start several days to a couple weeks after a vaccine. And there’s many people with ME/CFS who had ME/CFS start on overseas travel. When I’ve asked these people when the symptoms started it turns out many had them start 7 days to 2 weeks after their vaccinations for the trip. Ruining the holiday. That could be just correlation however because they may have been infected by a pathogen overseas also but the interesting factor is the amount of people who (anecdotally) said that happened early in their holiday.
Yes I know it’s rare, and far more likely to have ME/CFS triggered by a virus. But trying to get diagnosed for ME/CFS takes a long time, if believed at all. So because of that, could Post Vaccination Syndrome have gone underreported?
We know that a prolonged stressor like a virus can trigger ME/CFS, so possibly the same mechanism is at play with Post Vaccination Syndrome, especially knowing that mRNA and Spike don’t clear away in a few days like we thought. And we also know that many people with ME/CFS have inflamed lymph nodes anyway, the very place that the spike protein was found to be hanging out.
Another question that needs to be looked at: Are other vaccines leaving debris in the germinal centres of lymph nodes?
Study link
Immune imprinting, breadth of variant recognition, and germinal center response in human SARS-CoV-2 infection and vaccination / CELL
https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(22)00076-9.pdf
Note: Read Page 2 and then scroll to Page 10 to find ‘Prolonged detection of vaccine mRNA in LN GCs and spike antigen in LN GCs and blood following SARSCoV-2 mRNA vaccination’
There’s also a 2012 study on the flu vaccine and it showed issues in ME/CFS too. Yet no follow up studies I know of.
Study
>>>The Effects of Influenza Vaccination on Immune Function in Patients with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis<<<
https://file.scirp.org/Html/17-2100362_24744.htm
There have been plenty of patient surveys done showing their vaccination either triggered or worsened their disease.
Note, I haven’t said “caused the disease” because it may not be a cause. It may just be a trigger for someone teetering on the doorstep of developing ME/CFS. Like several months later a pathogen could have triggered the disease also anyway.
I originally got diagnosed with FM a month after a flu shot gave me a bad reaction. Now, i have been diagnosed with POTS just a few short months after does 4 of the covid vaccine. It’s not been fun!
“So because of that, could Post Vaccination Syndrome have gone underreported?”
I believe PVS is vastly underreported. I first had a vaccine injury (where my symptoms started) and then became completely disabled after I got Covid the second time. (Vaccine>covid>covid)
When I would talk to doctors, almost all of them ignored what I was saying until I got to Covid. My chart notes would omit the part about the vaccine (which I got 5 months before my first bout of covid).
Only within the last year have I begun to have doctors acknowledge my PVS. When my migraine neurologist said, “Yeah, we’re seeing a lot of that” I knew the tide had begun to turn. Three years of denial preceded that moment.
Much more sane and civil convo today. Glad you’re working to find the balance in this discussion… it’s an annoying line we have to walk. Vaccines can be both broadly amazing for huge majorities, and problematic in specific population subsets. Both things can be true. But our discourse is so all-or-nothing, and no one will give and inch for (justified) fear that the reactionaries will take a mile.
I wish we could just do science. Understand that ANY treatments we create can be a boon for many and a problem for some. That is reality. Tylenol kills a shocking number of people. Anti-inflammatories destroy the gut in many. Anti-depressants have material side-effects. We all know the risks of opiods now (and yet many of us still take them). That is how this works. Nothing will be perfect for everyone all the time. But if we’d just calm down and do the science, we could refine, target, supplement, and otherwise modify treatment protocols so they get better and better over time.
Everything is babies and bathwater these days.
Great reminder! This “Understand that ANY treatments we create can be a boon for many and a problem for some.” puts things into perspective…
I am one of the lucky ones with ME/CFS, POTS, FM, and Long-COVID. I know that I also have post-vaccine injury. It’s been a very tough few years. I’m glad to know that I’m not alone, but I wouldn’t wish these energy-limiting chronic illnesses on anyone.
A new study published February 21, 2025 in “Science” may help differentiate different diseases (including vaccine responses) and potentially match these with the best treatment options.
“Disease diagnostics using machine learning of B cell and T cell receptor sequences”
.
Abstract: Clinical diagnosis typically incorporates physical examination, patient history, various laboratory tests, and imaging studies but makes limited use of the human immune system’s own record of antigen exposures encoded by receptors on B cells and T cells. We analyzed immune receptor datasets from 593 individuals to develop Machine Learning for Immunological Diagnosis, an interpretive framework to screen for multiple illnesses simultaneously or precisely test for one condition. This approach detects specific infections, autoimmune disorders, vaccine responses, and disease severity differences. Human-interpretable features of the model recapitulate known immune responses to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, influenza, and human immunodeficiency virus, highlight antigen-specific receptors, and reveal distinct characteristics of systemic lupus erythematosus and type-1 diabetes autoreactivity. This analysis framework has broad potential for scientific and clinical interpretation of immune responses.
Eric Topol had a great post on this and he mentioned long COVID.
Hi Cort, Where can I read Eric Topol’s post?
Hi Cort: As always, thanks for the blog. I try to make it a point to read each and every one, but this one is indeed special. Although I wasn’t one of the 42 who submitted biospecimen to this subStudy of the “LISTEN Study” itself, I have participated in LISTEN since early fall of 2022. That same year, I received my 4th vaccine (2nd booster/Omicron Bivalent) and have been ill since. I got probable COVID (although tested negative on RAHA)shortly thereafter which I’m sure didn’t help matters. I had no issues at all with the initial Pfizer BNT Series (shots 1 &2, only transient issues with the first booster (shot #3), as far as I knew, but shot #4 was the one that “got me”; symptoms (initially an all over painful, itchy rash, then regular late afternoon adrenaline dumps, what felt like hyPERthyroidism and a weight loss of 20 lbs, internal vibrations, and severe anxiety) appearing 3 weeks later, well before the suspected COVID. Suggesting either a cumulative effect OR a varied response to a different type of vaccine or both. COVID added another layer of symptoms; depression, brain fog, severe fatigue, a vague but persistent nausea, eye issues, cognitive disturbance and more.
It has been rough going. I’m involved with several vax injury groups online (and yes, conspiracy theories and nonsense abound), and found myself in that fortunate group of individuals that could still (mostly) function, albeit some days at a snails pace. Recently I have had other issues (cardiac and polycythemia) that have been much more serious, and for which I have been hospitalized twice; both of which existed prior to the vax, but the first of which seems to have been made much worse by the vax a/o LongC.
I’d like to attest to the immense kindness and humanity exhibited by the Study Leaders, as well as their professionality; Iwasaki, Krumholz, Putrino, Bornali Bhattacharjee, Dr. Danice Hertz (a former GI doc herself injured) and others are just phenomenal human beings who have dedicated themselves to helping those whose lives have been turned upside down by Long Hauling of either or both types, I trust them implicitly and their work has been critical in my ability to keep going. I’ve supplied, at their request, my “story”, medical records, etc.,attended numerous internet/Zoom “cafes” and “Town Halls” where they supply their LongHaul findings.
(“LISTEN” is also about finding solutions for Long COVID, as well as long vax) and have read and watched their written and YouTube presentations avidly. As such, I was privy to this information long before it was made public and have had the opportunity to hear two presentations from the team regarding, as well as read the pre-print sometime ago.
It’s a technical read, but worthwhile and I understand Dr. Mobeen Syed has done an hour breakdown of the Study that some might find helpful (YouTube; “Dr Been Medical Lectures”) and numerous reputable media outlets have also summarized.
It’s my hope that LISTEN research, that of Nath, Patterson, Mikhal Tal (MIT) and others is not only on the brink of LongCOVID and CFS/ME important discovery, but ALL chronic illness as well, including various forms of illness that we currently regard as “mental” illness. Again, many thanks for posting the blog. I’ve put up a small regular donation to signal my appreciation. I wish it could be more.
I want to second this sentiment about the professionalism and empathy demonstrated by Yale researchers during the course of the study.
I am one of the 42 test subjects whose biospecimens were analyzed.
I do hope more research can be done and that the PVS research starts to unlock answers for everyone with these immune system dysfunctions, no matter the triggering event.
I am thankful that the Yale researchers were willing to ask these questions in a time when critical thinking and analysis of objective data are mere whispers in a small corner of our public discourse.
How can one say it’s “proven” that the jab reduced covid hospitalization and death when there’s no way to prove it was due to the vaccine and not the evolving medical care given, as well as the mutations in the virus itself? Correlation does not prove causation, especially when several factors were changing at the same time. For instance, one of my loved ones got covid early on. He was told to treat it like the flu – bed rest and small bites of food and liquid as much as possible. He laid there on his back at home till he was so bad the ER finally admitted him. He died two days later. Another loved one got covid six months later. She was given an inhaler, told to monitor her O² levels, get up out of bed and move around every couple hours, lay on her stomach for ½ hour each time she laid back down. She ended up in the hospital with O² delivered by canula, and went home a day later, recovering fully. (Neither were vaccinated.) See the difference in treatment? How much did the virus mutate in that six months? Without double blind, controlled studies, there’s no proof why outcomes changed in large groups of people.
That said, it’s really great to see the increased interest in these debilitating disease syndromes and more promising results from these studies. The future is looking brighter all the time. Thank you, Cort, for keeping us informed of the research and results that might otherwise go unnoticed.
I should add to the examples I gave that both loved ones were adults. He had no health problems at all. She has fibromyalgia, had been weakened by a radical mastectomy the year before and was on hormonal based chemo to prevent the return of cancer, yet she’s the one who survived.
I’m confused. Over my lifetime, I have gotten almost all the recommended vaccines; multiples of Moderna and Pfizer Covid, Prevnar 20 and 23, RSV, yearly flu, both types of Shingles, multiple childhood vaccines like MMR, Tdep etc.) plus a variety of ‘exotics’ for foreign travel such as for HEP A/B, Typhoid, Yellow Fever, Japanese Encephalitis and Cholera. I even had a second dose of an early oral polio vaccine–now discontinued–because it can later morph into a (usually milder) form of polio. I’m sure I have forgotten to list many more.
To my knowledge, I haven’t yet contracted Covid. However, despite getting my annual flu shot I got the most horrible case of the flu recently. It also seems as if I do not mount a lasting response to polysaccharide vaccines either.
I read study after study. Struggling with ME/CFS, if I take a cursory view of my immune system, I wonder if it might be confused with all these ‘insults’ (modifications) to its natural workings. I believe the body, in its uncontaminated state (think of all the man made chemicals for instance) is very elegant. My brain certainly is having trouble understanding this complex subject. Perhaps this thought isn’t even worth posting…
Please do not use the words “vaccine conspiracy theory” — it is very dismissive and includes a lot of real experiences that are not all that far out. We all know that CFS was considered all in one’s head at one time and that the scientific/medical establishment could be dismissive but had to eventually catch up with the reality that people were actually experiencing. Anecdotal information is worthwhile as long as we are in an atmosphere where ‘acceptable science’ is limiting what is studied or refuses to admit mistakes. I live in a rural area where the populations are small and everybody knows everybody. Post vaccine injuries in each age group (the initial vaccines were done in my province by age group, starting with the oldest) were obvious (ie after the first round in the older folks, a sudden increase in the obituaries, then when the next age group – people in their 50s — happened, an increase in heart attacks, etc.. etc.. community wide in that age group, then the young kids, myocarditis). Those who had eyes to see, saw, including doctors, who were told not to give exemptions — my own doctor wanted to give me a medical exemption for work because of my CFS but told me she was not allowed to by our provincial health authorities. For myself, since getting CFS I had spent a lot of effort to calm my immune system and did not want to take anything that would stimulate it. At the beginning of the Covid crisis, the initial advice was not to take the vaccine if you had auto-immune issues, then the “science” quickly changed (that is the ‘voice’ of science made a decision, even though many scientists felt otherwise). Many of us lost their jobs because of an unwillingness to take a chance. Many lost their health because they took the vaccine. And so just dismissing our experiences as “conspiracy theory” is very hurtful.
I notice doubling down on the vaccine issue as part of the outrage at the Trump authoritarianism. People don’t have the attention spans for nuance. We really can’t get a break…
I think the cool thing about the studies is not necessarily what they reveal about vaccines, but rather the uncovering of underlying mechanisms, which may ultimately explain why so many different things couldn’t trigger the same illness.For what it’s worth the Covid vaccine actually dramatically improved my ME/CFS. Each time I got a new booster I would feel way better for four days and then get sicker again. At first I thought it was my imagination. But after it happened for the third time I came to the conclusion that the vaccine was distracting my immune system from whatever it was normally doing triggering my ME/CFS. Next, I found a sympathetic allergist, who is also a scientist, and we basically just started experimenting with different drugs to poke my immune system. Eventually settling on Cromalyn Sulfate and Cimetidine. These two drugs cut my overall symptoms by about 25%, but most notably, I would recover from a crash within days instead of weeks. Next, they started taking Oxalocetate which reduced my symptoms by another 30%. Still very sick, but at least I’m able to have sort of a life again. Just thought I would share in case that’s useful to anyone.
Thanks for this Cort. I have always found it challenging to decipher and understand medical/ scientific research articles. And you have always written in a way that makes it possible for me to understand.:)
I had a neurological reaction to Moderna 15 min after injection that never improved but steadily got worse with all the symptoms listed and I have very limited use of my legs or semi paralysis almost 4 years later. Patterson insisted my high il 8, vegf and scd40l was lyme but I believe all those markers can be for herpes as it affects the endothelium. He never suggested it was herpesvirus. We talk a lot about EBV but I believe is also HSV1 and HHV6 are nearly just as common.
Also I live in a remote area and my caregiver takes his n95 mask seriously so I never contracted covid until last year. I had already been 3 years bedridden at that point with the severe electric tremors. So just a shout out that PVS is real and I am part of a large online community that know this too.