Dr. Richard Podell and Dr. Ginerva Liptan on Using Medical Marijuana in Fibromyalgia

[Cort]

See other medical marijuana video's in Health Rising's Medical Marijuana Media section

 

[460inparadise]

I remember reading of a fibromyalgia study that DID try medical cannabis versus the top three prescribed drugs and found that the cannabis was the most effective for most people.

The effects of THC wear off in 2-3 hours. The metabolites show up in tests for at least a month so those tests are not useful in actually determining whether a person is "under the influence." Tests of driving under the influence have shown that habitual users do not perform more poorly than non-users but casual users do not drive well under the influence. I personally never drive, or even leave home, after using.

I have intractable pain from ME/CFS, fibromyalgia and arthritis. I've tried the prescription cocaine drugs (anything with "co" in it -- oxycontin, oxycodeine, codeine, vicodin, etc., all are prescription cocaine with all the horrible side effects and potential to addict and to kill.) And the PerCOset I was prescribed after major surgery did not touch my other pain problems and made me feel like a different person, very negative, one I didn't even recognize after I quit taking it.

I live in Colorado where medical and recreational cannabis are legal, with a lot of rules and restrictions. I have been growing my own, to the extent possible, and using it for over 2 years now. When my plants are not ready (it takes about 3-4 months from seed to harvest) or my harvest doesn't yield enough, I go to a dispensary that is a two hour drive, because they use organic methods, unlike the dispensary that is only 7 miles from me. Growing my own is a lot of work but I've figured the expense of buying it and it costs me about half as much if I'm able to grow my own. And I then know that no toxic chemicals have been used on it and can use the strains that are most effective for me. My all-time favorite is called LA Woman; SAGE is second.

Cannabis is the only medicine that helps me with sleep. Unfortunately it wears off in 2-3 hours so when pain awakens me during the night I have to take another dose and wait 10-20 minutes for it to take affect.

I usually make a tincture using grain alcohol as the solvent. THC is not soluble in water. Lately I bought a bong and have been using it once a day, just to save on buying the grain alcohol which is not cheap and which I evaporate most of in the process of making the tincture. I grow several strains and use them at different times of the afternoon, evening and night, depending on their characteristics and what I need at that time. I also take a CBD capsule each morning to partly offset the effects of THC. I work online mornings and need to be alert. The CBD capsule also allows me to not care much about the CBD levels in the plants I grow although one variety has a 7:7 ratio of CBD and THC. One doctor who also uses it for pain told me that the varieties with blue or purple in their names or in their bud colors are the most effective for pain so I grow a variety with blue in it.

I use the whole plant, stems and leaves included, in making my tincture. I store it in brown glass bottles with an eyedropper and dose it by the dropperful.

The side effects are not prohibitive. I keep sugar-free cough drops nearby and pop one of those in my mouth after taking a dose so I have no "dry mouth" problem. The dizzyness is acceptable to me since I already have ataxia due to ME and cannabis doesn't make it any worse. It does give me the munchies but much of the time I simply wait for that to go away, or for the tincture to put me back to sleep. If I can't sleep because of the munchies, a tablespoon of peanut butter does the trick.

I don't mind if BigPharma wants to isolate some of the components of cannabis and try to sell pills, sprays, balms or other types of medication but I don't think that is the only way, nor the best way possible, of medicating with cannabis. I do believe the "entourage effect" or what I call the synergy of the whole plant is beneficial. As Dr. Mechoulam, father of cannabis research has stated, the artificial cannabis they have produced doesn't have the same direction of spin for some of the molecules so probably doesn't have the same affect on the cannabinoid receptors of the brain and gut.

Congressman Dana Rohrabacher (sp?) of California uses a liniment of cannabis to treat his severe arthritis so he can continue to surf. I make one of my own and my husband gives me a foot massage every other evening, using this liniment. Helps me sleep.

If you live where it's legal, I highly recommend medical cannabis for ME, pain, sleep issues and more. The Israeli and Spanish research shows it is effective against Alzheimer's, PTSD, asthma, brain damage due to concussion and many forms of cancer. A search on youtube for Dr. Mechoulam and/or Spanish researchers Drs. Guzman and Sanchez would give anyone a good look at what's being done with it outside the US where Prohibition still rules politically instead of scientifically. The NIH has a patent on CBD as antioxidant and neuroprotectant. (#6630507) They quietly sent hundreds of thousand of US dollars to Dr. Mechoulam in the 1960s for this research. It is now sold in Canada for epilepsy but still not available in the US.

By any measure the pros far out way the cons, for most people. In states where it is legal, the use of the prescription cocaine drugs has dropped dramatically along with deaths from overdoses from them. Cannabis is not a narcotic -- it doesn't depress respiration -- and no one has ever overdosed on it although the novice user can be overwhelmed by novel sensations if they use too much initially, especially if they are using edibles for the first time.

 

[madie]

@460inparadise my neighbor and I have both gotten lasting FM pain relief from 4 1.5 hour sessions of John Barnes myofascial release. We do recommended exercises at home and also take boswellia 3x a day.

https://www.mfrtherapists.com/app/list.asp?state=CO&country=US I recommend "expert" level if there's somebody near you.

 

[460inparadise]

What does it cost?

They are all at least a 3 hour drive from me and that alone is prohibitive. Six hours on the road and I'm wiped out for days.

Thanks for the link.

 

[Cort]

Thanks

I remember reading of a fibromyalgia study that DID try medical cannabis versus the top three prescribed drugs and found that the cannabis was the most effective for most people.

The effects of THC wear off in 2-3 hours. The metabolites show up in tests for at least a month so those tests are not useful in actually determining whether a person is "under the influence." Tests of driving under the influence have shown that habitual users do not perform more poorly than non-users but casual users do not drive well under the influence. I personally never drive, or even leave home, after using.

I have intractable pain from ME/CFS, fibromyalgia and arthritis. I've tried the prescription cocaine drugs (anything with "co" in it -- oxycontin, oxycodeine, codeine, vicodin, etc., all are prescription cocaine with all the horrible side effects and potential to addict and to kill.) And the PerCOset I was prescribed after major surgery did not touch my other pain problems and made me feel like a different person, very negative, one I didn't even recognize after I quit taking it.

I live in Colorado where medical and recreational cannabis are legal, with a lot of rules and restrictions. I have been growing my own, to the extent possible, and using it for over 2 years now. When my plants are not ready (it takes about 3-4 months from seed to harvest) or my harvest doesn't yield enough, I go to a dispensary that is a two hour drive, because they use organic methods, unlike the dispensary that is only 7 miles from me. Growing my own is a lot of work but I've figured the expense of buying it and it costs me about half as much if I'm able to grow my own. And I then know that no toxic chemicals have been used on it and can use the strains that are most effective for me. My all-time favorite is called LA Woman; SAGE is second.

Cannabis is the only medicine that helps me with sleep. Unfortunately it wears off in 2-3 hours so when pain awakens me during the night I have to take another dose and wait 10-20 minutes for it to take affect.

I usually make a tincture using grain alcohol as the solvent. THC is not soluble in water. Lately I bought a bong and have been using it once a day, just to save on buying the grain alcohol which is not cheap and which I evaporate most of in the process of making the tincture. I grow several strains and use them at different times of the afternoon, evening and night, depending on their characteristics and what I need at that time. I also take a CBD capsule each morning to partly offset the effects of THC. I work online mornings and need to be alert. The CBD capsule also allows me to not care much about the CBD levels in the plants I grow although one variety has a 7:7 ratio of CBD and THC. One doctor who also uses it for pain told me that the varieties with blue or purple in their names or in their bud colors are the most effective for pain so I grow a variety with blue in it.

I use the whole plant, stems and leaves included, in making my tincture. I store it in brown glass bottles with an eyedropper and dose it by the dropperful.

The side effects are not prohibitive. I keep sugar-free cough drops nearby and pop one of those in my mouth after taking a dose so I have no "dry mouth" problem. The dizzyness is acceptable to me since I already have ataxia due to ME and cannabis doesn't make it any worse. It does give me the munchies but much of the time I simply wait for that to go away, or for the tincture to put me back to sleep. If I can't sleep because of the munchies, a tablespoon of peanut butter does the trick.

I don't mind if BigPharma wants to isolate some of the components of cannabis and try to sell pills, sprays, balms or other types of medication but I don't think that is the only way, nor the best way possible, of medicating with cannabis. I do believe the "entourage effect" or what I call the synergy of the whole plant is beneficial. As Dr. Mechoulam, father of cannabis research has stated, the artificial cannabis they have produced doesn't have the same direction of spin for some of the molecules so probably doesn't have the same affect on the cannabinoid receptors of the brain and gut.

Congressman Dana Rohrabacher (sp?) of California uses a liniment of cannabis to treat his severe arthritis so he can continue to surf. I make one of my own and my husband gives me a foot massage every other evening, using this liniment. Helps me sleep.

If you live where it's legal, I highly recommend medical cannabis for ME, pain, sleep issues and more. The Israeli and Spanish research shows it is effective against Alzheimer's, PTSD, asthma, brain damage due to concussion and many forms of cancer. A search on youtube for Dr. Mechoulam and/or Spanish researchers Drs. Guzman and Sanchez would give anyone a good look at what's being done with it outside the US where Prohibition still rules politically instead of scientifically. The NIH has a patent on CBD as antioxidant and neuroprotectant. (#6630507) They quietly sent hundreds of thousand of US dollars to Dr. Mechoulam in the 1960s for this research. It is now sold in Canada for epilepsy but still not available in the US.

By any measure the pros far out way the cons, for most people. In states where it is legal, the use of the prescription cocaine drugs has dropped dramatically along with deaths from overdoses from them. Cannabis is not a narcotic -- it doesn't depress respiration -- and no one has ever overdosed on it although the novice user can be overwhelmed by novel sensations if they use too much initially, especially if they are using edibles for the first time.

Thanks so much for your very informative post 460inparadise!

I think its great you're able to grow at home and use your own stuff. I hope that is never taken away. Even if the entourage effect is determinative your post still indicates to me how much this plant is crying for more research. Let it be so...

 

[madie]

Medical marijuana will be available in my state next year, and I hope to find strains that help with sleep and, secondarily, FM. I've been able to try indica tincture and indica capsules, but neither has helped. So the next step is to test individual strains. I'll have to buy it - they haven't legalized growing for personal use.

The cost of J. B. myofascial release varies widely by location. My sessions cost $180 for an hour and a half; I think this is as expensive as it gets. I lucked into a practitioner 10 minutes from my house, which is just in my driving range. I'm sorry there's nobody closer to you.

 

[460inparadise]

Madie, CBD is non-psychoactive, as you know, and can be bought online now. I get mine from Vitamin Discount Center/http://www.vitamindiscountcenter.com/

It costs me about $60/month -- I have a "subscription" whereby they automatically send me a new bottle each month, at a slight discount.

CBD is effective treatment for muscle spasms, inflammation and restless leg syndrome, in my experience and in some research. This lessens pain in several ways. Lessens, but doesn't knock it out, nor does it knock the user out.

 

[madie]

Madie, CBD is non-psychoactive, as you know, and can be bought online now. I get mine from Vitamin Discount Center/http://www.vitamindiscountcenter.com/

It costs me about $60/month -- I have a "subscription" whereby they automatically send me a new bottle each month, at a slight discount.

CBD is effective treatment for muscle spasms, inflammation and restless leg syndrome, in my experience and in some research. This lessens pain in several ways. Lessens, but doesn't knock it out, nor does it knock the user out.

I've tried CBD from 4 vendors, including Elixinol and Charlotte's Web [in case purity was the problem with the cheaper ones]. It makes me sick at 5 drops. Since I'm allergic to hemp seed (vomiting), I imagine that's the problem. I have less of a problem with cannabis drops, but haven't found a sweet spot where I get pain and sleep relief without major flu symptoms the next day. If you think your preparation might work for me, let me know what you use.

Last year I had a chance to test high CBD and also high CBN whole cannabis patches and lotion, and nothing happened at all. I think I'm down to testing individual strains with help from a dispensary, and smoking it [which doesn't appeal to me].

 

[460inparadise]

Thanks

Thanks so much for your very informative post 460inparadise!

I think its great you're able to grow at home and use your own stuff. I hope that is never taken away. Even if the entourage effect is determinative your post still indicates to me how much this plant is crying for more research. Let it be so...

Thanks Cort. In Colorado, voters got a constitutional amendment ending Prohibition here so unless the Feds change their policies (of looking the other way in states with regulations in force) this status is not going away. I live near the borders with Nebraska, Kansas and Wyoming and every weekend the dispensary near me has out-of-state license plates dominating the parking area and people lined up out the door, many of them in wheelchairs, using walkers and are bald or white-haired (elders.)

Some of the very high taxes on recreational are earmarked for research and a researcher here has just been given the money to research treatment of veterans with PTSD. She was shut out of that research in Arizona but moved on to Colorado.

I recently watched a youtube video in which a man gave his mother, who has Alzheimer's, a Dronabinol (THC/Marinol) pill and then filmed her pacing in agitation, wanting to leave her house because it wasn't "her house." After 10:30 minutes she sat down and started reading. He asked her if she remembered the pacing and wanting to leave. She didn't. This video was probably from Canada where Marinol available.

Israeli researcher Dr. Mechoulam and his associates have demonstrated how cannabis relieves trauma-induced nightmares in Holocaust survivors. They use it in nursing homes for PTSD and Alzheimer's. I'm interested in this because we who have ME have similar brain lesions to those found in Alzheimer's, and other neurological symptoms. The patent I referenced above, owned by NIH, is about using CBD as, and I quote, "an antioxidant and neuroprotectant."

But the DEA just recently responded to a 2011 petition from legislators, doctors and researchers by once again claiming there is no proven medical value so they refused to reschedule or deschedule it. They have effectively prohibited American research with their policy of only approving studies that set out to prove harm and only letting them use plants grown in their cannabis farm -- strains that equate to Mexican ditch weed. So most of the research that is going on is done outside the US. All this despite the fact that there are patents in the US and many other countries claiming medical applications. I guess the US Patent Office didn't get the memo that it's illegal and has no medical application. They must have used science instead of politics to make their decisions.

Dr. Mechoulam is in clinical trials for 8-AG, one of the cannabinoids, and his research shows that this cannabinoid helps broken bones mend and helps prevent osteoporosis. He expects to have it on the market (outside the US, of course) by next year.

 

[460inparadise]

I've tried CBD from 4 vendors, including Elixinol and Charlotte's Web [in case purity was the problem with the cheaper ones]. It makes me sick at 5 drops. Since I'm allergic to hemp seed (vomiting), I imagine that's the problem. I have less of a problem with cannabis drops, but haven't found a sweet spot where I get pain and sleep relief without major flu symptoms the next day. If you think your preparation might work for me, let me know what you use.

Last year I had a chance to test high CBD and also high CBN whole cannabis patches and lotion, and nothing happened at all. I think I'm down to testing individual strains with help from a dispensary, and smoking it [which doesn't appeal to me].

Madie, I haven't found topicals to be very effective either, although I put some of my tincture in the balm I make for my foot massages. I simply like the smell of it. I don't grow the stinky varieties, for the most part.

I don't like smoking either but recently bought a small bong and started using it once a day, usually my first dose of the afternoon/evening. Smoking or vaping gets the cannabinoids into your system faster than taking it by tincture or edibles. For my "boosters" I use the tincture.

Is that what you are asking about? How I make it or...? I'm sure dispensaries have tinctures too but I've never bought them. I prefer to make my own, using grain alcohol as the solvent. The varieties I like best are LA Woman and SAGE, both hybrids but looking like indicas in their form. (Shorter, wider and with larger leaves than the taller, skinnier, skimpier looking sativas.) Indicas are supposed to be more sedating, and people who use during the day say the sativas allow them to "wake and bake" without making them sleepy.

The place where I get my seeds also sends free seeds with each order so I have grown some of the varieties I would never choose otherwise, including White Widow, Sour Diesel and Berry Bomb, which has the blue/purple buds that are said to be the best pain relievers. The variety I'm smoking/bonging once a day is the LA Woman and I also have tincture of that one.

If I haven't answered your question, or have provoked more questions, please feel free to ask. I'm not an expert but I'm experienced.

 

[madie]

Thanks for all the info, @460inparadise. I wasn't actually asking a question, just sharing information. I'm done experimenting until dispensaries open here next year. I'm not going to risk growing my own, so making tincture would be cost-prohibitive. My FM should qualify me for medical mj, and I'll try smoking whatever is recommended. Certainly purples, and a bong is a good idea.

 

[RobertWeiss]

Actually, we need more studies to understand marijuana's active components in treating fibromyalgia. For example, I read on AddictionResource.com a 2018 study in which 25 people with fibromyalgia compared the pain-relieving effects of four types of marijuana, each of which had different THC and CBD contents. One of the four types of marijuana was a placebo which contained neither THC nor CBD. The study’s main findings indicate that compared to the placebo, marijuana didn’t have a significant effect on participant pain rankings.