I'm trying Carnivore Diet temporarily

[Not dead yet!]

I'm not an expert on this diet, but basically it's just eating meat and water. Most practitioners seem to get off of coffee and some use it to recover from addiction, based on the anecdotes online. Most recipes I've seen include spices and flavorings, most include dairy and eggs, and most suggest primarily eating beef or bovid creatures (venison, elk, etc). In my very short experience, nothing satisfies my hunger like beef. I can go 16 hours on a large steak with nothing else but water. I drink coffee as well, and apparently many people do.

It seems to be helping my gut to be less gassy and bloated. It has caused a return of strength. I have Celiac disease and I was diagnosed with anemia more than 10 years before my Celiac diagnosis. So for me, the beef effect is possibly due to my body having trouble absorbing iron. I can't promise the same effect for everyone and wouldn't anyway. I don't believe in diet dogma.

If you want to try it, then I'd give these warnings:

1. Watch out for the "carnivore bread" type recipes on youtube. I'm not convinced they aren't junk food. Keep to the simple recipes for best results.

2. Careful of the public forums where carnivore is discussed. It seems to be a target of "incel brigading" and some really vicious attitudes against women were under active discussion on reddit when I visited there. The sad thing is, the diet itself works really well. Maybe it's due to the number of people using the diet for addiction.

3. Sometimes they use the argument that since you can't prove anything about diet, that means science has failed to teach us anything, and therefore you should just do what you want. I prefer to know what science has to say, even if it's not much. I've seen claims from the Carnivore community that you don't need to eat organ meat, while also praising the explorers for their all meat diet (the explorers said organ meats are essential. So that set off my marketing alarm.

There are good places to learn about it, such as places in the UK that use all meat dieting temporarily as an Elimination Diet baseline. And some of the blogs are interesting, like a blogger or two who has re-evaluated their diet and is now like, "Well, I've been promoting/influencing for supplements all this time, now I don't need them, what now?" I'll offer some links here and if you know of more, please contribute. If we get a good response and if others feel like their strength returns with Carnivore, it may become a resource.

Sites to see:

https://www.shawn-baker.com/ (MD in the US who promotes the diet and has an informative book)

https://rosemarycottageclinic.co.uk/blog/2019/01/20/10-tips-for-plant-free-and-carnivore-diets/ (UK nutritionist using all meat elimination diet for food allergies)

https://meatrx.com/category/recipes/dairy-and-egg-free/ (big archive of recipes, which include many I'd consider too fancy, but may help when one is transitioning; this link is to the more traditional carnivore recipes)

Overall it's an avenue that's worth knowing about and for some people may be worth pursuing. I can't say it's directly helping just the ME/CFS since I have the Celiac/anemia aspect to deal with also. But since it helped me feel more capable and *completely* stopped the dizzyness from bending over at the waist, I think it's worth mentioning.

It's also simple to do, especially if you rely on a simple cooking device like an Instant Pot instead of pan frying. Pan frying can cause some serious cleanup issues for people who are not prepared to use a lot of energy scrubbing. It simplifies shopping as well.

 

[Not dead yet!]

Couple more links worth reading:

http://kristensraw.com/blog/2018/03...es-for-over-60-days-and-ate-a-carnivore-diet/ (the blog I mentioned, woman who changed her diet to Carnivore)

https://mariamindbodyhealth.com/carnivore-diet/ A respected keto author blogging about her new book on Carnivore.

 

[Apo Sci]

The carnivore diet is one of the newer nutritional fads. I agree with many nutritionists who think it is a really bad idea. My reasons are as follows. The human species is omnivorous. While we can survive on meat for a while, we are adapted to eating plants and cutting them out of the diet will really interfere with several very important functions of the human body.

• Elimination requires vegetable fiber. Fiber, the indigestible parts of plants are what gives your feces the consistency that is required to allow the muscles of the intestinal walls to propel it through the digestive tract. Without it you can get severe constipation and develop a serious medical condition called impaction. https://www.relias.com/blog/the-fatal-four-how-constipation-impacts-health
• Your symbiotic intestinal bacteria require fiber for their nutrition. These bacteria are critical for your immune system to function optimally, lift your mood by making amino acid precursors that are natural antidepressants and guard against depression and are necessary to keep blood clotting working right since they convert vitamin K1 to K2. Eating only meat changes the kind of bacteria from a healthy balance to one that promotes disease.

Wanting to test the idea of harmful vs helpful bacteria a year ago I did an experiment where I changed the kind of bacteria I use in my yogurt cultures from the normal balanced kind to one that only had the supposedly "beneficial" bacteria, lacking the harmful ones (acidophilus strains) that promote weight gain. For thousands of years we have been getting bacteria from our environment when we ate unwashed plants. Science has determined that the types of bacteria that colonize your gut are determined largely by the balance of vegetables to meat plus having many types of bacteria available from the environment to select from. The end result was the opposite of what I expected and I suffered a large increase in symptoms of depression because the acidophilus bacteria was actually helping my mental state most likely through creating amino acids used in the the Shintamaki cycle which convert to antidepressant neurotransmitters and worsened my depression by so much that I needed to go on antidepressant treatment. The best diet is proven to eat small amounts of animal proteins and a large amount of plants with a mixed balance of bacteria eaten as either yogurt or from live cultures in fermented vegetables. This lowers your cancer risk and makes your body and its symbiotic bacteria happy.

Even people that eat a lot of meat still traditionally include vegetables as sea grasses and kelp which is essential for vitamin C and fiber (although eating large amounts of meat may spare some vitamin C, reducing the amount needed).

Inuit cuisine - Wikiwand

Historically, Inuit cuisine, which is taken here to include Greenlandic, Yupʼik and Aleut cuisine, consisted of a diet of animal source foods that were fished, ...

www.wikiwand.com

I'm a Registered Dietitian and I Really Don't Want You to Eat a Carnivore Diet

Vegetables are good for you, I promise.

www.self.com

The Carnivore Diet: Is the All-meat Diet Healthy or Crazy?

Onnit investigated the carnivore diet down to the marrow, and found out what happens to your body when you consume animals and nothing else.

www.onnit.com

 

[Larry]

As long as you up your fat intake gradually and SUBSTANTIALLY, its a really cool tool to use for a period of time. Use it asa learning opportunity. I would caution though. MOST PEOPLE DO THIS IMPROPERLY. You will 100% down regulate your metabolism over time. This is not good for healing from CFS in my experience. While it does give you an opportunity to better understand how energy flows in your body, it will also use somewhat of a stress response to crate energy. Done over long time, your body will change. The whisper on the street in the right communities is that a dis regulated body become hyper sensitive to things. Reducing those things will greatly reduce the stress reactions to food.. I've done it. You will feel different. Done to excess and without the proper amounts of fat, it can be damaging...especially to the gut lining.. You can monitor some of this via SLGA1 &SLGA2 in a stool sample.

 

[Not dead yet!]

As long as you up your fat intake gradually and SUBSTANTIALLY, its a really cool tool to use for a period of time. Use it asa learning opportunity. I would caution though. MOST PEOPLE DO THIS IMPROPERLY. You will 100% down regulate your metabolism over time. This is not good for healing from CFS in my experience. While it does give you an opportunity to better understand how energy flows in your body, it will also use somewhat of a stress response to crate energy. Done over long time, your body will change. The whisper on the street in the right communities is that a dis regulated body become hyper sensitive to things. Reducing those things will greatly reduce the stress reactions to food.. I've done it. You will feel different. Done to excess and without the proper amounts of fat, it can be damaging...especially to the gut lining.. You can monitor some of this via SLGA1 &SLGA2 in a stool sample.

I'm definitely hypersensitive to things. I have Celiac disease, my T cells are messed up permanently and they can recognize "gluten" mimics on the surfaces of many ordinary, every day, gut flora bacterias. All I need to react to a food is a slight change in gut flora and I"m reading everything in my kitchen going, "OMG does one of these have gluten?" LOL

One of the problems I see with the carnivore diet, so far, is that it dropped my Calcium levels. Which wouldn't bother a man, but it bothers a woman a lot. Well, second hand it bothers a man, since it intensifies PMS. Among other things, like I suddenly had a return of bone aching pain.

Once I supplemented properly with calcium, I improved and the pain went away. This is starting to make me suspect a hyperparathyroid issue.

Another thing I'd have to go to a specialist clinic to find out!

 

[TJ_Fitz]

There are good places to learn about it, such as places in the UK that use all meat dieting temporarily as an Elimination Diet baseline. And some of the blogs are interesting, like a blogger or two who has re-evaluated their diet and is now like, "Well, I've been promoting/influencing for supplements all this time, now I don't need them, what now?" I'll offer some links here and if you know of more, please contribute. If we get a good response and if others feel like their strength returns with Carnivore, it may become a resource.

I just started carnivore (mostly) last Thursday, January 12, 2023. By the end of Friday, I was weak as a baby, and have remained so up through now (Sunday 1/15/23). My intention is to use it as an elimination diet, as recommended by Judy Cho in her book, The Carnivore Cure. She suggests reintroducing plant foods one at a time, one per week (or longer) to be sure you aren't missing a reaction.

I find that I feel ok, compared to SAD, on paleo, but I still eat way too much fruit/sugar. Given my food sensitivities, I'm certain that my gut mucosa is seriously damaged and leaky, and I probably have bacterial and/or yeast overgrowth in my gut. I'm hoping this diet will help my gut heal and kill off bad bugs.

We can't afford for me to only eat ruminant meat, as Judy recommends for the beginning of the program, so I'm just doing the best I can with beef, pork, and turkey. My stomach is incredibly sensitive to overeating since I started, which is weird because stomach and GI discomfort are so rare for me; it feels like my system is backed up from eating too much meat too soon. High fat foods, like bacon or roast beef topped with ghee, are much more satisfying than lower fat meals. I'm still permitting myself small amounts of vegetables to settle my stomach (1 stalk of celery or 1 oz baby carrots at a sitting). My heart rate is a bit high, and I haven't pooped since I started, but apparently that is normal at the beginning.

I've read and seen in videos that the first week is hard because that's when the body uses up all glycogen stores and has to shift into using ketones for fuel instead. I'm hoping to stick with it for at least a month. Many report improvements after 2 weeks.

 

[Not dead yet!]

I just started carnivore (mostly) last Thursday, January 12, 2023. By the end of Friday, I was weak as a baby, and have remained so up through now (Sunday 1/15/23). My intention is to use it as an elimination diet, as recommended by Judy Cho in her book, The Carnivore Cure. She suggests reintroducing plant foods one at a time, one per week (or longer) to be sure you aren't missing a reaction.

I find that I feel ok, compared to SAD, on paleo, but I still eat way too much fruit/sugar. Given my food sensitivities, I'm certain that my gut mucosa is seriously damaged and leaky, and I probably have bacterial and/or yeast overgrowth in my gut. I'm hoping this diet will help my gut heal and kill off bad bugs.

We can't afford for me to only eat ruminant meat, as Judy recommends for the beginning of the program, so I'm just doing the best I can with beef, pork, and turkey. My stomach is incredibly sensitive to overeating since I started, which is weird because stomach and GI discomfort are so rare for me; it feels like my system is backed up from eating too much meat too soon. High fat foods, like bacon or roast beef topped with ghee, are much more satisfying than lower fat meals. I'm still permitting myself small amounts of vegetables to settle my stomach (1 stalk of celery or 1 oz baby carrots at a sitting). My heart rate is a bit high, and I haven't pooped since I started, but apparently that is normal at the beginning.

I've read and seen in videos that the first week is hard because that's when the body uses up all glycogen stores and has to shift into using ketones for fuel instead. I'm hoping to stick with it for at least a month. Many report improvements after 2 weeks.

Good to hear you're having some success with an elimination type carnivore diet. I did end up going back to a more normal omnivore diet eventually, but we're not all the same. I hope it works out for you.

I had been keto before carnivore and that helped make the transition easier. But I think meat today isn't the same as wild meat that explorers ate. Even though I have a high tolerance for eating organ meat, it seemed to cause me more trouble over time. I'm guessing that's due to lower quality of meat now than before. One thing I noticed was that Lamb is a good meat for this., and often overlooked. In the US, most lamb is older so it has a strong flavor. Look around for a farm near you with sheep and see if you can get some very fresh lamb this spring and freeze a supply to last until at least the fall.

Use something like this to find a local farm: https://www.localharvest.org/

 

[TJ_Fitz]

Good to hear you're having some success with an elimination type carnivore diet. I did end up going back to a more normal omnivore diet eventually, but we're not all the same. I hope it works out for you.

I had been keto before carnivore and that helped make the transition easier. But I think meat today isn't the same as wild meat that explorers ate. Even though I have a high tolerance for eating organ meat, it seemed to cause me more trouble over time. I'm guessing that's due to lower quality of meat now than before. One thing I noticed was that Lamb is a good meat for this., and often overlooked. In the US, most lamb is older so it has a strong flavor. Look around for a farm near you with sheep and see if you can get some very fresh lamb this spring and freeze a supply to last until at least the fall.

Use something like this to find a local farm: https://www.localharvest.org/

Do you know your blood type? Type O is supposed to be best suited for carnivore, while type A is the type best suited for a vegetarian diet (if anyone is!). Mine is type B, which is supposed to be more of an omnivore, and more tolerant of dairy than O or A (not really true for me, though, with my casein sensitivity).

Yesterday, I switched back to Paleo to reset, and I designed a program that I hope will help me ease into carnivore. I think I know what went wrong for me: I ran out of stored energy before my body could adjust to digesting the larger portions of meat OR before I could adapt to ketosis. Digestion is definitely a very energy-intensive activity, and, I suspect, so is switching from a carbohydrate-based to a fat-based metabolism. Without energy, I couldn't do either, which is why my body was shutting down after <4 days.

Now I'm trying to ease into the change. I've limited antinutrients that I think are the most trouble for me, I'm starting the day with a meal that's rather heavy on fruit to provide carbs for energy, I'm eating plant and animal foods away from each other, and I'm attempting to eat carnivore meals for lunch and dinner. I hope this will help me ramp up my protein and fat digestion capacity, then I can try switching to all carnivore and ketosis once the digestive capacity piece seems to be in place. It's not a healthy diet if you're starving due to indigestion!

I'm planning to continue taking my multivitamin and some other supplements, so I'm not so concerned that I get everything I need from animal products I eat. I don't want to be one of those people who treats their diet like a religion. I've already been down that road with the blood type diet!

 

[Not dead yet!]

I'm O-neg and have a lot of Neanderthal genes. But I also have many genes that adapt me to eating grains. Yet I also have one of the two Celiac genes and it's definitely active. I'm not sure I put a lot of faith in blood type diet and such either. I've had too many counter examples in my life.

What works for me now is focusing on helping my gut flora to be happy. And dealing with the downstream effects of Celiac like anemia and thyroid issues.

I'd say that was all that was needed to explain my tiredness, but there's also the tests showing overwhelming current reactions to CMV and EBV. And the fevers. I went to a supposed "infectious disease expert" but her expertise started and ended with STDs. I had to disappoint her, as I have none. She dutifully tested me and found nothing of course. I asked her to test me for yellow fever and such but she refused. SMH

 

[TJ_Fitz]

I'm O-neg and have a lot of Neanderthal genes. But I also have many genes that adapt me to eating grains. Yet I also have one of the two Celiac genes and it's definitely active. I'm not sure I put a lot of faith in blood type diet and such either. I've had too many counter examples in my life.

What works for me now is focusing on helping my gut flora to be happy. And dealing with the downstream effects of Celiac like anemia and thyroid issues.

I'd say that was all that was needed to explain my tiredness, but there's also the tests showing overwhelming current reactions to CMV and EBV. And the fevers. I went to a supposed "infectious disease expert" but her expertise started and ended with STDs. I had to disappoint her, as I have none. She dutifully tested me and found nothing of course. I asked her to test me for yellow fever and such but she refused. SMH

I'm lucky to not have any (known) genetic disposition toward Celiac disease. I still avoid gluten, but I don't have to be so scrupulous about it. Sorry about the disappointing experience with the doctor. So frustrating!

I've decided against making another attempt at going on carnivore diet for now, and the ND I'm seeing for CIRS agrees. However, it wasn't a wasted effort. I learned quite a bit more about antinutrients than I knew before, and I'm now doing a low-oxalate, low-phytate, and low-solanine diet. It looks a lot like Paleo, but I give up spinach and almonds and get back white rice (among other tradeoffs). I think that cutting most of the oxalate from my diet is helping. It's not just a problem for kidney stone patients; it can build up everywhere and affect virtually everything. It's quite hard on the gut mucosa, too.

Little known facts about oxalates and their poisonous effects - Sally K. Norton

The oxalic acid in the plants we eat can cause generalized health problems such as poor concentration and joint stiffness - even carpel tunnel syndrome.

sallyknorton.com

 

[Not dead yet!]

I'm lucky to not have any (known) genetic disposition toward Celiac disease. I still avoid gluten, but I don't have to be so scrupulous about it. Sorry about the disappointing experience with the doctor. So frustrating!

I've decided against making another attempt at going on carnivore diet for now, and the ND I'm seeing for CIRS agrees. However, it wasn't a wasted effort. I learned quite a bit more about antinutrients than I knew before, and I'm now doing a low-oxalate, low-phytate, and low-solanine diet. It looks a lot like Paleo, but I give up spinach and almonds and get back white rice (among other tradeoffs). I think that cutting most of the oxalate from my diet is helping. It's not just a problem for kidney stone patients; it can build up everywhere and affect virtually everything. It's quite hard on the gut mucosa, too.

Little known facts about oxalates and their poisonous effects - Sally K. Norton

The oxalic acid in the plants we eat can cause generalized health problems such as poor concentration and joint stiffness - even carpel tunnel syndrome.

sallyknorton.com

Yeah my current avoid list includes too many nuts and spinach. Of all the greens, only spinach seems to really hurt me. And it's instant, or nearly. Within 30 minutes all my joints ache. Nuts just give me constipation.

White rice though, I wonder if you've ever heard of a researcher named Kempner? I posted a resource about his diet that was mainly white rice and sugar. (Yeah weird huh?) It was focused on recovery from kidney damage. He wasn't a kook.

I did try it and noticed I could eat appropriate amounts of white rice and feel fine when I tried it for a month. It did help reduce inflammation but only if I kept salt very low or totally absent. Very restrictive. It's good as a cleanse but I dont think there are any more reliable "rice diet" doctors anymore. Most of them are scams now.

 

[TJ_Fitz]

Yeah my current avoid list includes too many nuts and spinach. Of all the greens, only spinach seems to really hurt me. And it's instant, or nearly. Within 30 minutes all my joints ache. Nuts just give me constipation.

White rice though, I wonder if you've ever heard of a researcher named Kempner? I posted a resource about his diet that was mainly white rice and sugar. (Yeah weird huh?) It was focused on recovery from kidney damage. He wasn't a kook.

I did try it and noticed I could eat appropriate amounts of white rice and feel fine when I tried it for a month. It did help reduce inflammation but only if I kept salt very low or totally absent. Very restrictive. It's good as a cleanse but I dont think there are any more reliable "rice diet" doctors anymore. Most of them are scams now.

I couldn't do that. Too much rice make me constipated, and that's already my normal tendency. I've wondered about adding in sprouted beans. Apparently, most of the antinutrients are concentrated in the skin, and the skins come off when sprouted.

 

[Not dead yet!]

I couldn't do that. Too much rice make me constipated, and that's already my normal tendency. I've wondered about adding in sprouted beans. Apparently, most of the antinutrients are concentrated in the skin, and the skins come off when sprouted.

I love beans! I was the most terrible Paleo ever. I did it right, but I didn't last.

I did learn that canned beans have been cooked at pressure temperatures which breaks down antinutrients and gas producing sugars, more than stovetop cooking.
By the way if you still have any bottles of mag-citrate, they are contaminated with some pathogen. The company hasn't made new ones afaik, in a year. I also suffer constipation so I resort to mag-citrate when needed. Those lifesaving bottles that were so cheap were recalled. Sigh.

 

[Not dead yet!]

The carnivore diet is one of the newer nutritional fads. I agree with many nutritionists who think it is a really bad idea. My reasons are as follows. The human species is omnivorous. While we can survive on meat for a while, we are adapted to eating plants and cutting them out of the diet will really interfere with several very important functions of the human body.

• Elimination requires vegetable fiber. Fiber, the indigestible parts of plants are what gives your feces the consistency that is required to allow the muscles of the intestinal walls to propel it through the digestive tract. Without it you can get severe constipation and develop a serious medical condition called impaction. https://www.relias.com/blog/the-fatal-four-how-constipation-impacts-health
• Your symbiotic intestinal bacteria require fiber for their nutrition. These bacteria are critical for your immune system to function optimally, lift your mood by making amino acid precursors that are natural antidepressants and guard against depression and are necessary to keep blood clotting working right since they convert vitamin K1 to K2. Eating only meat changes the kind of bacteria from a healthy balance to one that promotes disease.

Wanting to test the idea of harmful vs helpful bacteria a year ago I did an experiment where I changed the kind of bacteria I use in my yogurt cultures from the normal balanced kind to one that only had the supposedly "beneficial" bacteria, lacking the harmful ones (acidophilus strains) that promote weight gain. For thousands of years we have been getting bacteria from our environment when we ate unwashed plants. Science has determined that the types of bacteria that colonize your gut are determined largely by the balance of vegetables to meat plus having many types of bacteria available from the environment to select from. The end result was the opposite of what I expected and I suffered a large increase in symptoms of depression because the acidophilus bacteria was actually helping my mental state most likely through creating amino acids used in the the Shintamaki cycle which convert to antidepressant neurotransmitters and worsened my depression by so much that I needed to go on antidepressant treatment. The best diet is proven to eat small amounts of animal proteins and a large amount of plants with a mixed balance of bacteria eaten as either yogurt or from live cultures in fermented vegetables. This lowers your cancer risk and makes your body and its symbiotic bacteria happy.

Even people that eat a lot of meat still traditionally include vegetables as sea grasses and kelp which is essential for vitamin C and fiber (although eating large amounts of meat may spare some vitamin C, reducing the amount needed).

Inuit cuisine - Wikiwand

Historically, Inuit cuisine, which is taken here to include Greenlandic, Yupʼik and Aleut cuisine, consisted of a diet of animal source foods that were fished, ...

www.wikiwand.com

I'm a Registered Dietitian and I Really Don't Want You to Eat a Carnivore Diet

Vegetables are good for you, I promise.

www.self.com

The Carnivore Diet: Is the All-meat Diet Healthy or Crazy?

Onnit investigated the carnivore diet down to the marrow, and found out what happens to your body when you consume animals and nothing else.

www.onnit.com

Hi ApoSci,

Didn't respond because as I said I was just trying it out. It didn't work out. I had of course heard these warnings before, but they're good to have in a forum for everyone to see. Thanks. No snark, I mean it. I'm sorry it took a while to reply to you.

Having been through every kind of diet, every macro percentage type, every extreme and not extreme, I have to say that my body feels best on the foods my mom made when I was little. Which is just varied and omnivorous. She cooked from scratch so it was good stuff. I'm going through a phase of stuffed peppers at the moment. Maybe I just miss her.

I wish wellness to you and everyone.