Microbiome in CFS and ME

[ChristianBonanno]

i’m sorry, but you can’t say “research shows” and not show me any of the research.

 

[Baz493]

I can't find the same research which I was thinking of when I wrote the post but this one is close, detailing how development of our microbiome during our first years affects our health for the rest of our lives. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8537230/

 

[ChristianBonanno]

Yes, I agree with that study. But what I’m saying is that you have to go deeper than that to really understand what’s going on and how to correct it.

The gut Microbiome is affected by ATP, GTP IMP, and XMP

If you have too much of those are too little of those, your microbiome will not be able to control the environment in the gut and this will correlate with other symptoms like either depression, fatigue, mania, or anxiety, depending on whether they are higher or low.

It’s not that one causes the other, they both arise from the same fundamental issue of low or high basic purines.

Exploration of the link between gut microbiota and purinergic signalling - PMC

Growing evidence reveals that microorganisms in the gut are linked to metabolic health and disease risk in human beings to a considerable extent. The focus of research at this stage must tend to focus on cause-and-effect studies. In addition to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It is way more complicated to try to decide what specific balance of the thousands of microbes we need in our guts then it is to decide why we have balances in these basic purines.

More

ATP as a Pathophysiologic Mediator of Bacteria-Host Crosstalk in the Gastrointestinal Tract - PMC

Extracellular nucleotides, such as adenosine triphosphate (ATP), are released from host cells including nerve termini, immune cells, injured or dead cells, and the commensal bacteria that reside in the gut lumen. Extracellular ATP interacts with the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pro.4314

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(20)31572-2

 

[Baz493]

Yes, I agree with that study. But what I’m saying is that you have to go deeper than that to really understand what’s going on and how to correct it.

The gut Microbiome is affected by ATP, GTP IMP, and XMP

If you have too much of those are too little of those, your microbiome will not be able to control the environment in the gut and this will correlate with other symptoms like either depression, fatigue, mania, or anxiety, depending on whether they are higher or low.

It’s not that one causes the other, they both arise from the same fundamental issue of low or high basic purines.

Exploration of the link between gut microbiota and purinergic signalling - PMC

Growing evidence reveals that microorganisms in the gut are linked to metabolic health and disease risk in human beings to a considerable extent. The focus of research at this stage must tend to focus on cause-and-effect studies. In addition to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It is way more complicated to try to decide what specific balance of the thousands of microbes we need in our guts then it is to decide why we have balances in these basic purines.

More

ATP as a Pathophysiologic Mediator of Bacteria-Host Crosstalk in the Gastrointestinal Tract - PMC

Extracellular nucleotides, such as adenosine triphosphate (ATP), are released from host cells including nerve termini, immune cells, injured or dead cells, and the commensal bacteria that reside in the gut lumen. Extracellular ATP interacts with the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pro.4314

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(20)31572-2

Unfortunately one of the flaws found in medical research is that each piece of research has to be based on a theory, a philosophy if you will. The researcher sets out to prove, or disprove, that theory. We don't usually get to read researchers self-disproven theories but it is common to read researchers trying to disprove each others theories. Even those of us who post on these forums possess unique theories/philosophies, based on what we have read to date, which determine the suggestions we are likely to write. In my own case that research has been pointing me towards elevated levels of certain types of bacteria which are associated with the health issues which I have. The research into those types of bacteria, and their metabolites and toxins, can get pretty confusing since there are often many factors which have to be considered. I do admit that I haven't previously looked at the research which you have posted, and do find the information on purines very interesting/potentially useful even though my own health issues don't involve them, but find the information on ATP, GTP, IMP, and XMP, irrelevant to my own philosophy for attempting to repair health via diet. I realise that they are intimately relevant to medical research and the development of drugs but they are unlikely to impact my choices of foods and supplements. One of the funny things which you find in medical research is that there usually isn't just one way to achieve an outcome, even if some are more effective than others. For myself it was a familial predisposition (relating to inherited microbiome) to gluten allergy and multiple sclerosis along with decades of working with heavy metals and industrial toxins in the glass industry which were the the original primary drivers for a dysregulated microbiome. It turned out that one substance, which we were told was safe to be exposed to, was burning holes in my gastrointestinal tract. Try repairing the microbiome when that is going on, lol.

 

[ChristianBonanno]

Unfortunately one of the flaws found in medical research is that each piece of research has to be based on a theory, a philosophy if you will. The researcher sets out to prove, or disprove, that theory. We don't usually get to read researchers self-disproven theories but it is common to read researchers trying to disprove each others theories. Even those of us who post on these forums possess unique theories/philosophies, based on what we have read to date, which determine the suggestions we are likely to write. In my own case that research has been pointing me towards elevated levels of certain types of bacteria which are associated with the health issues which I have. The research into those types of bacteria, and their metabolites and toxins, can get pretty confusing since there are often many factors which have to be considered. I do admit that I haven't previously looked at the research which you have posted, and do find the information on purines very interesting/potentially useful even though my own health issues don't involve them, but find the information on ATP, GTP, IMP, and XMP, irrelevant to my own philosophy for attempting to repair health via diet. I realise that they are intimately relevant to medical research and the development of drugs but they are unlikely to impact my choices of foods and supplements. One of the funny things which you find in medical research is that there usually isn't just one way to achieve an outcome, even if some are more effective than others. For myself it was a familial predisposition (relating to inherited microbiome) to gluten allergy and multiple sclerosis along with decades of working with heavy metals and industrial toxins in the glass industry which were the the original primary drivers for a dysregulated microbiome. It turned out that one substance, which we were told was safe to be exposed to, was burning holes in my gastrointestinal tract. Try repairing the microbiome when that is going on, lol.

You are attempting to repair. I have repaired. I was able to repair because I found the cause.

The Cause of my Mental Illness

How a Partial Purine Nucleoside Phosphorylase Deficiency, and a Zinc Deficiency, ruined my life.

christianbonanno.substack.com

So what method should be followed?

How you handle environmental imbalances is dictated by how balanced your metabolism is.

Cellular energy is what controls the reaction to all of the things you have listed. You cannot prove what microbiome you inherited, It is impossible. It is an unprovable hypothesis.

Let's look at MS though:

Axonal transport deficits in multiple sclerosis: spiraling into the abyss - Acta Neuropathologica

The transport of mitochondria and other cellular components along the axonal microtubule cytoskeleton plays an essential role in neuronal survival. Defects in this system have been linked to a large number of neurological disorders. In multiple sclerosis (MS) and associated models such as...

link.springer.com

The combined effect of all these pathways is a vicious cycle in which a defective axonal transport system leads to an increase in ATP consumption through loss of membrane organization and a reduction in available ATP through inhibition of mitochondrial transport, resulting in even further inhibition of transport. The persistent activity of this positive feedback loop contributes to neurodegeneration in MS.

You need to fix what is affecting ATP but you cannot do that without knowing your genetics.

 

[Baz493]

Actually I never developed the familial multiple sclerosis. From what I have read that's likely to be the combination of greater sun exposure/vitamin D production and my love for Asian food containing antimicrobials. Over the years I have repaired various conditions, such as industrial solvent induced chronic fatigue, lactose intolerance, sciatica, and so on. My current condition (myositis, impaired respiratory function, and a range of other health issues/diseases) has been solely the result of medical incompetence and systemic denial, which I am currently registering a comprehensive complaint to the government in regards to.

I have considered whether it could be possible to determine our inherited microbiome from the composition of the microbiome in our colons. The high risks (possible death or disease) of faecal microbiota transplants make them very unappealing but it is still interesting that, by implanting the faecal microbiota from healthy individuals into people with inherited diseases they have been able to reverse or cure such conditions. https://multiplesclerosisnewstoday....l-ms-trial-shows-safety-potential-enrich-gut/ That makes me think that it is this region of our gastrointestinal tract where the inherited microbiome is much more resilient to change by diet after early childhood, with the transplants resulting in significant change.

I used to think that it was essential to know my genetic profile, and am still hoping to obtain a comprehensive test at some point, however recent research has been demonstrating that gene variants aren't necessarily inherited. It seems that our microbiome is able to cause gene variants in at least some cases, with the possibility that further research may well prove that the microbiome regulates them all. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7680557/

 

[ChristianBonanno]

Actually I never developed the familial multiple sclerosis. From what I have read that's likely to be the combination of greater sun exposure/vitamin D production and my love for Asian food containing antimicrobials. Over the years I have repaired various conditions, such as industrial solvent induced chronic fatigue, lactose intolerance, sciatica, and so on. My current condition (myositis, impaired respiratory function, and a range of other health issues/diseases) has been solely the result of medical incompetence and systemic denial, which I am currently registering a comprehensive complaint to the government in regards to.

I have considered whether it could be possible to determine our inherited microbiome from the composition of the microbiome in our colons. The high risks (possible death or disease) of faecal microbiota transplants make them very unappealing but it is still interesting that, by implanting the faecal microbiota from healthy individuals into people with inherited diseases they have been able to reverse or cure such conditions. https://multiplesclerosisnewstoday....l-ms-trial-shows-safety-potential-enrich-gut/ That makes me think that it is this region of our gastrointestinal tract where the inherited microbiome is much more resilient to change by diet after early childhood, with the transplants resulting in significant change.

I used to think that it was essential to know my genetic profile, and am still hoping to obtain a comprehensive test at some point, however recent research has been demonstrating that gene variants aren't necessarily inherited. It seems that our microbiome is able to cause gene variants in at least some cases, with the possibility that further research may well prove that the microbiome regulates them all. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7680557/

You have hypotheses created from stringing together other hypotheses when you need to be creating hypotheses with facts.

And saying that the microbiome changes gene variants is just wrong.

Isn't it more likely you inherited the genetics that control the microbiome rather than inherited the microbiome?

Host genetic control of gut microbiome composition

The gut microbiome plays a significant role in health and disease, and there is mounting evidence indicating that the microbial composition is regulated in part by host genetics. Heritability estimates for microbial abundance in mice and humans range ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

First, a genetic variant may directly cause the disease phenotype, resulting in an altered microbiome as a consequence of the disease phenotype. Second, a genetic variant may alter gene expression in the host, which in turn alters the microbiome, producing the disease phenotype.

You just need to study more.

 

[Baz493]

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2017.63 There is now sufficient research, connecting levels of specific bacteria with specific host gene variants to either pose the argument that the variants influence the microbiome or the reverse. While some, more arrogant, researchers pose the first argument https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37827115/ others are much more cautious https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2200551119 An enormous number of so-called facts which were taught in school have been disproven over the decades proving that making pompous declarations doesn't prove arguments. The association between specific microbial expressions associated with specific gene variants has not yet been explained as figure one in this article details. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8295090/ As the following article states; Gut microbiota has a widespread and modifiable effect on host gene regulation.

Perhaps you just need to study more.

 

[ChristianBonanno]

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2017.63 There is now sufficient research, connecting levels of specific bacteria with specific host gene variants to either pose the argument that the variants influence the microbiome or the reverse. While some, more arrogant, researchers pose the first argument https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37827115/ others are much more cautious https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2200551119 An enormous number of so-called facts which were taught in school have been disproven over the decades proving that making pompous declarations doesn't prove arguments. The association between specific microbial expressions associated with specific gene variants has not yet been explained as figure one in this article details. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8295090/ As the following article states; Gut microbiota has a widespread and modifiable effect on host gene regulation.

Perhaps you just need to study more.

You said in the earlier post that the microbiome was changing gene variants. I agree that it’s not doing that, that it is only changing gene expression.

When you cure yourself of a 35 year illness then you can be arrogant as well.