'NAD: The Biological Rocket Fuel that Gives You Energy'

[doerfast]

I've started using Molecular Hydrogen Water and must say it does seem to be helping. It is an exciting new therapy you need to research. Key is getting a good hydrogen water generator. I spent around $200 on mine and it puts out 800-1200 ppm

http://www.molecularhydrogenfoundat...ow-to-get-the-benefits-of-molecular-hydrogen/

https://selfhacked.com/2016/07/29/hydrogen-water/

 

[Learner]

@doerfast

Thanks for the illuminating discussion on NAD/NADH. There seems to be a lot of controversy, even in the info you gathered.

I do believe this to be true, as I've gotten a consistent boost from sublingual NADH, where NR and nicotinamide haven't done anything, and it matches all the diagrams I've seen:

electrons from NADH, rather than NADH itself, are carried across the mitochondrial membrane.

Phospatidylcholine is good, but its got to be in a useful format and fix the gut first, as an unhappy gut can lead to overproduction of TMAO.

But, even better would be NT Factor, developed by Garth Nicolson, which has all the constituents of the membranes. He has several studies on it. This is particularly useful for people with PEMT SNPs leading to problems in the Kennedy pathway and a peroxynitrite problem which damages the membranes.

 

[doerfast]

@doerfast

Thanks for the illuminating discussion on NAD/NADH. There seems to be a lot of controversy, even in the info you gathered.

I do believe this to be true, as I've gotten a consistent boost from sublingual NADH, where NR and nicotinamide haven't done anything, and it matches all the diagrams I've seen:



Phospatidylcholine is good, but its got to be in a useful format and fix the gut first, as an unhappy gut can lead to overproduction of TMAO.

But, even better would be NT Factor, developed by Garth Nicolson, which has all the constituents of the membranes. He has several studies on it. This is particularly useful for people with PEMT SNPs leading to problems in the Kennedy pathway and a peroxynitrite problem which damages the membranes.

 

[doerfast]

I take NT Factor as well. PhosChol is the best there is as most all PC on the market is NOT pure PC. Here is a great video by BodyBio on PC. He states at the end of the video that there are only 3 PC products in the USA that are pure PC

 

[doerfast]

Everyone needs to get there CoQ10 levels checked as well. Life Extension has blood test on sale for $44 until like June 4th. Mine was really low at 0.38 but I got it up to 1.65 in a month and will keep taking high doses of Ubiquinol until I get over 6.

http://www.lifeextension.com/Vitamins-Supplements/itemLC120251/CoQ10-Coenzyme-Q10-Blood-Test

 

[Remy]

Everyone needs to get there CoQ10 levels checked as well. Life Extension has blood test on sale for $44 until like June 4th. Mine was really low at 0.38 but I got it up to 1.65 in a month and will keep taking high doses of Ubiquinol until I get over 6.

http://www.lifeextension.com/Vitamins-Supplements/itemLC120251/CoQ10-Coenzyme-Q10-Blood-Test

I actually just got my coq10 tested as well. Mine was super low (I think around .3 as well but I'd have to double check).

What dose are you taking and what form? Just ubiquinol? Or a combo ubiquinol/ubiquinone like Klimas recommends?

 

[doerfast]

I actually just got my coq10 tested as well. Mine was super low (I think around .3 as well but I'd have to double check).

What dose are you taking and what form? Just ubiquinol? Or a combo ubiquinol/ubiquinone like Klimas recommends?

I've been taking CostCo Kirkland 200 mg Kaneka Ubiquinol at 3-5 a day. Meaning 600-1000 mg a day. But have been doing mainly just 600 mg this month. I'm going to get it checked again July. I don't see it on Costco's website anymore but people are selling it on ebay. Costco also has a USP verified 300 mg CoQ10.

I'm going to try some lipsomal CoQ10 by FoodScience Corp as I know they are a very reputable company.

http://www.foodscienceofvermont.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=4

I'm over 40 yrs old and I know they say to take Ubiquinol if your over 40 but I read an article by biochemists who show that they convert back and forth inside you so it really doesn't matter what type of Q10 you take. The liposomal form is suppose to be as good as an IV.

http://www.zmc-usa.com/docs/CoQ10_Facts_or_Fabrications.pdf

Life Extension.com states you should get your levels over 3 or higher. Even stating getting it up over 7 would be like your youth. Don't know if that's just to get you to buy more of their product or not. But I'm sure it can't hurt.

I'd say the main thing is get to the CoQ10 levels up as high as you can, take a good PC/lipids for the cell membrane, get a good hydrogen water generator and drink at least a gallon a day of it and chronic fatigue will turn into a thing of the past. You can feel a whole body tingling sensation when you drink that hydrogen water so something is definitely going on. Hydrogen is the smallest molecule so gets into the mitochrondia and it's a HUGE antioxidant.

I got mine from this company, the Model H05, as I saw a website of a seller in St Louis that had it and she stated it was really good as she tested it for PPM.

https://rorty.en.alibaba.com/?tracelog=from_orderlist_company

I ordered directly from China and the thing was at my door in like 4 days

I've also I'm trying hard to stay away from the carbs as I was a big bread, potato, pasta, etc. eater. I still eat some here and there but definitely backing off of it.

What ever I'm doing is definitely helping because I'm sleeping better than I have in DECADES! No melatonin, no sleeping pills, NOTHING. Just good deep sleep when I fall asleep

 

[doerfast]

I've been taking CostCo Kirkland 200 mg Kaneka Ubiquinol at 3-5 a day. Meaning 600-1000 mg a day. But have been doing mainly just 600 mg this month. I'm going to get it checked again July. I don't see it on Costco's website anymore but people are selling it on ebay. Costco also has a USP verified 300 mg CoQ10.

I'm going to try some lipsomal CoQ10 by FoodScience Corp as I know they are a very reputable company.

http://www.foodscienceofvermont.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=4

I'm over 40 yrs old and I know they say to take Ubiquinol if your over 40 but I read an article by biochemists who show that they convert back and forth inside you so it really doesn't matter what type of Q10 you take. The liposomal form is suppose to be as good as an IV.

http://www.zmc-usa.com/docs/CoQ10_Facts_or_Fabrications.pdf

Life Extension.com states you should get your levels over 3 or higher. Even stating getting it up over 7 would be like your youth. Don't know if that's just to get you to buy more of their product or not. But I'm sure it can't hurt.

I'd say the main thing is get to the CoQ10 levels up as high as you can, take a good PC/lipids for the cell membrane, get a good hydrogen water generator and drink at least a gallon a day of it and chronic fatigue will turn into a thing of the past. You can feel a whole body tingling sensation when you drink that hydrogen water so something is definitely going on. Hydrogen is the smallest molecule so gets into the mitochrondia and it's a HUGE antioxidant.

I got mine from this company, the Model H05, as I saw a website of a seller in St Louis that had it and she stated it was really good as she tested it for PPM.

https://rorty.en.alibaba.com/?tracelog=from_orderlist_company

I ordered directly from China and the thing was at my door in like 4 days

I've also I'm trying hard to stay away from the carbs as I was a big bread, potato, pasta, etc. eater. I still eat some here and there but definitely backing off of it.

What ever I'm doing is definitely helping because I'm sleeping better than I have in DECADES! No melatonin, no sleeping pills, NOTHING. Just good deep sleep when I fall asleep

You know what it could be? Drinking all that hydrogen water is regenerating the cells more than just with the hydrogen as dehydration effects the cell membrane big time:

https://sites.google.com/site/mcen4117deydration/dehydration-at-the-cellular-level

https://sites.google.com/site/mcen4117deydration/dehydration-at-the-systemic-level

• Decreased generation of energy as less water is flowing through cation pumps through cell membrane
• Decrease metabolic breakdown of ATP

http://www.wellbeingwithnutrition.c...rticles-all/9-articles/6-cellular-dehydration

 

[Learner]

Did you say you're drinking a gallon of water a day? I like water, but that might cause electrolyte and other imbalances. Too much of anything can be bad, and I have seen credible stories of too much water ingestion causing death.

Regarding the supplements, it is wise to get them through a reputable source. After inadvertently getting arsenic poisoning from a magnesium supplement (24 out of 30 tested by Labdoir.com had arsenic, including most major brands) and reactions with other supplements, I only go with companies who test every batch of every ingredient going into their factory, like Thorne Resesrch.

I live in an area where a lot is coming from China, and unfortunately, a lot of corners get cut and stuff is toxic. Best to have someone you trust test it, as adding toxicity to our problems just complicates matters...

 

[doerfast]

Did you say you're drinking a gallon of water a day? I like water, but that might cause electrolyte and other imbalances. Too much of anything can be bad, and I have seen credible stories of too much water ingestion causing death.

Regarding the supplements, it is wise to get them through a reputable source. After inadvertently getting arsenic poisoning from a magnesium supplement (24 out of 30 tested by Labdoir.com had arsenic, including most major brands) and reactions with other supplements, I only go with companies who test every batch of every ingredient going into their factory, like Thorne Resesrch.

I live in an area where a lot is coming from China, and unfortunately, a lot of corners get cut and stuff is toxic. Best to have someone you trust test it, as adding toxicity to our problems just complicates matters...

No I'm drinking 64 oz a day not a gallon. Kirkland CoQ10 has been certified by the USP and you can't get any better than that. Labdoor.com is nothing more than a supplement pushing website like consumerlab.com They get companies to pay them to write great reviews and they sell supplements that they review which is unethical. USP is an independent lab

http://www.quality-supplements.org/verified-products

Here is the machine I bought and as you can see the retailer who has been in the business for a very long time has video showing it's quality.

https://www.alkalinewaterplus.com/hydrogen-water-generators/high-rich-hydrogen-water-machine

 

[Learner]

You had said a gallon.

I have been burned by contaminated supplements, and there have been numerous scandals about food contamination from China. My doctor recently taught a class there and says the doctors there are reporting the toxicity is amazing.

And, after I pointed out to Whole Foods that one very popular one that I found had been tested by LabDoor and shown to have arsenic, they subsequently checked and pulled it from their shelves. I also found a supplement that's a reputable brand on their list that was contaminated that my very careful doctor had. Surprised, he checked on it and got rid of it.

I know someone at a very clean supplement company who tests every batch of everything they get, and they regularly are being sent contaminated stuff and rejecting it even from the same reputable sources, causing their products to vexingly be back ordered.

They've earned my trust, and I haven't had a problem with their products, where I've had issues with most other brands for one product or another. I don't buy anything from LabDoor and don't agree with most of their recommendations, but for my purposes, they seem to be good at testing for certain toxins, which I care about.

Our bodies are compromised, and being poisoned could be detrimental.

Good luck with the machine.

 

[doerfast]

Yes I should have stated 1/2 gallon not a gallon.

I NEVER stated anything about buying in bulk from China. Show me where I stated I was buying in bulk? I stated "I ordered directly from China and the thing was at my door in like 4 days". The hydrogen generators in Japan and Korea may be better but like I showed the retailer stated it was the BEST unit for the money.

Look I sell Douglas Labs, Pure Encapsulations and ProThera supplements as I'm a licensed healthcare professional so I know all about crappy supplements. In fact I'd say the supplement industry is just about as corrupt as Big Pharma. HUGE fraud and quackery goes on in the supplement industry.

Also a little secret for you, I'd say at least 90% of the supplements sold today in the USA the bulk powder is manufactured in China then the companies here put them in capsules, tablets, etc. It may say Manufactured in the USA on the label but the actual ingredients come from China. Go to Alibaba.com and put in your favorite supplement and I guarantee you'll find it in bulk.

 

[doerfast]

Yes I should have stated 1/2 gallon not a gallon.

I NEVER stated anything about buying in bulk from China. Show me where I stated I was buying in bulk? I stated "I ordered directly from China and the thing was at my door in like 4 days". The hydrogen generators in Japan and Korea may be better but like I showed the retailer stated it was the BEST unit for the money.

Look I sell Douglas Labs, Pure Encapsulations and ProThera supplements as I'm a licensed healthcare professional so I know all about crappy supplements. In fact I'd say the supplement industry is just about as corrupt as Big Pharma. HUGE fraud and quackery goes on in the supplement industry.

Also a little secret for you, I'd say at least 90% of the supplements sold today in the USA the bulk powder is manufactured in China then the companies here put them in capsules, tablets, etc. It may say Manufactured in the USA on the label but the actual ingredients come from China. Go to Alibaba.com and put in your favorite supplement and I guarantee you'll find it in bulk.

Largest CoQ10 supplier in the world is in CHINA
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com...-supplier-achieves-USP-Verified-certification

 

[BR+]

NAD deficiency has long been implicated in numerous chronic inflammatory diseases. It's even being used successfully in drug rehabilitation programs now to ease withdrawal symptoms.

It kind of seems like a miracle so I'm curious why more studies haven't been done using it with the MECFS population.

At this point, it's really, really expensive. Treatments typically run $1000+ for each IV session and usually a minimum of 4 sessions are recommended for CFS. There are clinics that offer less expensive versions but (of course) the people hawking the more expensive BR+ (brain restoration) version insist that theirs is the only effective way to produce the NAD and the price won't come down until the compounding pharmacy that developed it has recouped their investment.

All that makes me scratch my head a little bit because it seems like they could recoup their investment faster if it worked and more people did it at a lower price too.

So is it really all that and a bag of chips? Or just another expensive rip off? I sure wish I knew!

From MindBody Medicine Center:

I am here to hopefully clear up some of the misconceptions that is being propagated in this thread. Yes, NAD is all that and a bag a chips and more. I was trained at longest standing NAD treatment center by the founder and her husband. I own and operate a treatment center.

I have witnessed miracles and not with just detox. I can attest to correction of a stage 3 kidney failure diagnoses maintained by a nepherologist for over 15 years. Restoration was achieved in 2 months of treating with NAD IV's and NAD nasal spray in combination with a weekly myers cocktail and ALA push.

What resulted is an eGFR elevating from 25 to 61, and a creatinine reduction from 1.67 to .98 in a 82 year old woman named Mom. Her white matter and atrophy was significant. Ischemic white mater reversed as confirmed by PET and atrophy stabilized with some temporal lobe tracers that took Alzheimer off the table.

I am not sure why NADH is a matter of focus when the Oxidant, NAD, is what is required to maintain ratios to ensure electron substrate function.

Also, regarding cell permeability: Why dispense with an invalid premise? Meaning, the idea of lack of cellular penetration is the justification to dispense of the molecule, NAD, is a gross misconception. Redirect to NMN as the subset.

By example there are 3 ribose expressions that result with NAD supplementation. This expression is responsible for intracelluar calcium homeostasis. Many, including myself, attribute most cancer formations as being subject to mitochondria lacks Ca homeostasis.

 

[BR+]

NAD is not that expensive I checked on Alibaba with many companies that sell the raw powder which I bet 99.9% of the compounding pharmacies here in the USA get theirs from. Springfield Wellness just started the whole NAD IV thing in the USA as they were the only ones doing it so they jacked the prices way up and then started basically training other Docs.

Now there is a guy in Carmel IN starting his own little franchise selling it at $250K each. I've worked in the healthcare since 1992 and can tell you that the material and supplements they use cost them less than $100 Max a day probably more like 50-60. Sodium Chloride 0.09% NS bag 750ml cost like $20-25, NAD 1000mg powder diluted down then injected into the bag cost probably less than $15 beings it's bought in bulk, unless they are getting the whole IV bag already loaded from the compound pharmacy. Either way with amino acids, tyrosine, 5HTP, Vitamin C, Glutathione etc. you're not looking at more than $100 and that's probably pushing the high side.

You left out some important data that gives the reader the impression that the amount charged is unjust enrichment. Here are a few truths to factor:
1) This is a detox it requires support staff. Factor a nurse at $40/hour and depending on the State and APRN at $60/hour to be able to dispense PRN's as needed. The basic protocol requires about 40 hours of infusion resulting in a $1600 - $2400 labor load.
2) The Certificate of Analysis on each of the shipments I receive exceeds standards by an average of 7%. May not sound like much but consider you are dealing with a Pharm grade deliverable that is prepared for IV use.
3) Location- Anyone who has been to Springfield will tell you the location is unique and healing in itself. Addicts detoxing respond better to warm and friendly over sterile, all white and cold. Springfield gives me imagery of Walden.
4) The entire treatment has personalized catered food service and also enables the person that comes with the addicted to enjoy the same hospitality.

 

[BR+]

Iherb had a sublingual version of nad not nadh. It was ok but nothing earth shattering. More like a caffeine boost??

Given iv would probably be very different.

IV is very different. Other forms of delivery is available now in addition to sublingual. Patches, Sprays, Creams, SubQ are also available.

Two days of one squirt in each nostril of the spray and my primary colors almost were over stimulating. After a few bags the enhanced perception of our surroundings, which is very dulled due to toxins, gets more comfortable and interestingly enough has not decayed since the first spray over a year ago.

 

[BR+]

I take NT Factor as well. PhosChol is the best there is as most all PC on the market is NOT pure PC. Here is a great video by BodyBio on PC. He states at the end of the video that there are only 3 PC products in the USA that are pure PC

The only problem is that if your are on an anticoagulant you will hemorrhage, usually your eyes. PC increases cellular sensitivity, which stands to reason that a person, such as I have experience, will experience hemorrhage.

The good news is that PC infusions, subject to confirmation, with GSH pushes to follow, are said to have an 80% or greater cellular detox effect, which is a game changer.

 

[RUkiddingME]

I have been seeing a new supplement by Elysium called Basis pop up on my social media feed. It says that in a clinical trial it increased the amount of NAD in the blood by 40%. Anyone else hear of this or tried it? It says ils to be taken by healthy individuals. I don't want it to make my ME/CFS worse. Here is the link to their website https://www.elysiumhealth.com/ca

 

[Remy]

I have been seeing a new supplement by Elysium called Basis pop up on my social media feed. It says that in a clinical trial it increased the amount of NAD in the blood by 40%. Anyone else hear of this or tried it? It says ils to be taken by healthy individuals. I don't want it to make my ME/CFS worse. Here is the link to their website https://www.elysiumhealth.com/ca

It’s just nicotinamide riboside and pstilosterbene. These ingredients do have a lot of clinical support for us and others with mitochondrial dysfunction but Basis is about twice as expensive as buying the ingredients separately for no good reason (all NR comes from the same manufacturer).

From Amazon:
A: Basis capsules contains 125mg of nicotinamide riboside and 25mg of pterostilbene, Thorne Research - NiaCel-250 contains 250mg of nicotinamide riboside which is double the amount of nicotinamide riboside making Basis twice as expensive. All nicotinamide riboside is made by the same company so there is no difference in quality. You can add Jarrow Formulas Pterostilbene which is 50MG and 60 tablets which is double Basis 25MG for about $12.00. So basically 2 months of Thorne plus Jarrow would be $67.00 vs 2 months of Basis at $120.00

 

[Learner]

My doctor put 150mg of NAD+ in my IV nutrients bag, with B vitamins, carnitine, minerals, and glutathione.

I felt like a normal human being for 36 hours. The effect was repeatable, and the only thing thst changed in the protocol. As for the expense, labor, materials, and ingredients all add up.

I've standardized on a protocol of once a week IVs, with 150mg. LIAS Research NAD+ which has helped me be more active. The NAD+ seems to last longer in my system making energy than the NADH product.

There are 4 pathways to make NAD+. Nicotinamide riboside is one of them, and it just doesn't work for me, even in high doses. Elysium Basis is a nicotinamide riboside product and NOT NAD. The LIAS Research product should be. It is the only oral NAD+ product on the US market. All others I've seen are NR or niacin with a fancy name.

I'm only a patient, but I disagree with the scientists quoted above about NAD+ getting through membranes. What I think is going on is that the NAD+ is getting into the cells and through the outer mitochondrial membrane, picking up the H along the way, and then the H travels as an NADH molecule and then is pushed through the inner mitochondrial membrane to go make ATP.

I don't doubt NR product helps people - I've seen the studies, but it is not unreasonable to think that some of us have pathways that are somehow blocked so we can't use them.

There are a number of positive studies on NAD+ as well, which validate that it is helpgul to patients.​