What Antioxidants Do You Use

[RuthAnn]

If someone takes high doses of selenium but do not take Riboflavin with it, I think it will lead to a deficiency of Riboflavin which increases oxidative stress and causes disease. I say this because many of the symptoms of Selenosis are the same as riboflavin deficiency, like Alopecia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3681114/

Is there anything that can happen if you take riboflavin for a couple of years without taking selenium and are eating a diet practically void of selenium?

 

[Croatoan]

Is there anything that can happen if you take riboflavin for a couple of years without taking selenium and are eating a diet practically void of selenium?

Well selenium deficiency alone will cause issues, with or without riboflavin. I do not know if high riboflavin intake will decrease selenium, but it might. There is some evidence that cancer cells flourish with high riboflavin, but this might be because it increases DNA synthesis by speeding up th folate cycle and might have nothing to do with selenium.
http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/33/9/1977.abstract
Note they are saying in that study, not that riboflavin causes cancer, but that cancer cells grow more with riboflavin. That is a big difference.

 

[Remy]

From the above article from Linus Pauling Institute:

Five selenium-containing glutathione peroxidases (GPx1-4 and GPx6) have been identified: GPx1 (cytosolic GPx), GPx2 (epithelial cell-specific GPx expressed in intestinal lining and lungs), GPx3 (highly expressed in thyroid gland and kidneys), GPx4 (phospholipid-hydroperoxide GPx; PHGPx), and GPx6 (expressed in the olfactory epithelium) (4). GPx isoenzymes are all antioxidant enzymes that reduce potentially damaging reactive oxygen species (ROS), such as hydrogen peroxide and lipid hydroperoxides, to harmless products like water and alcohols by coupling their reduction with the oxidation of glutathione

Right...they produce these enzymes to reduce ROS because selenium actually creates ROS. In other words, by taking selenium without a known deficiency, you are inducing the very same oxidative stress it then has to upregulate enzymes to relieve. Bad idea.

 

[Croatoan]

Thinking out loud: Does selenium cause oxidative stress or does too much selenium cause oxidative stress?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25017966

Our findings support that high selenium levels increase oxidative stress in some biological processes.

If all selenium does is get rid of the oxidative stress it creates, why take it at all? And if selenium causes oxidative stress that means it would never lower it, which we know is not true (depending in the type you take).
http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/7/8/796.short
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0143400413001847?np=y

 

[tatt]

I take several supplements. NAC has been great, Q10 didn't seem to make enough difference to justify the cost, vitamin C helps a bit and is cheap.I dont think vitamin D is an antioxidant but I take it in the hope of reducing inflammation.

 

[RuthAnn]

And if selenium causes oxidative stress that means it would never lower it, which we know is not true (depending in the type you take).

That makes logical sense.

I am wondering if someone has high blood levels of selenium maybe their body isn't able to put it where it is needed. Two things I am going to look at are genetic issue and rate limiting precursor. Does that make sense?

Similar to copper being such a necessary metal but causing so many problems by being biounavailable due to lack of ceruloplasmin.

Also, I am thinking that seleno-cysteine might be the type I would want.

From Linus Pauling Institute:

Twenty-five genes coding for selenoproteins have been identified in humans (3). The insertion of selenocysteine into selenoproteins during translation is directed by the presence of a selenocysteine-insertion sequence (SECIS) within selenoprotein mRNAs. Briefly, the recognition of SECIS by the translational machinery results in the recruitment of specific translational factors that decode in-frame UGA codons by inserting selenocysteine into elongating selenoproteins (4).
Research is gradually uncovering the metabolic functions of all human selenoproteins, including splicing variants (3). Some of the selenoproteins with an identified function include:
mce-anchorGlutathione peroxidases

Five selenium-containing glutathione peroxidases (GPx1-4 and GPx6) have been identified: GPx1 (cytosolic GPx), GPx2 (epithelial cell-specific GPx expressed in intestinal lining and lungs), GPx3 (highly expressed in thyroid gland and kidneys), GPx4 (phospholipid-hydroperoxide GPx; PHGPx), and GPx6 (expressed in the olfactory epithelium) (4). GPx isoenzymes are allantioxidant enzymes that reduce potentially damaging reactive oxygen species (ROS), such as hydrogen peroxide and lipid hydroperoxides, to harmless products like water and alcohols by coupling their reduction with the oxidation of glutathione.

 

[Remy]

That makes logical sense.

No, it doesn't actually. (Moderator - please say why something doesn't make sense if you don't believe it does)

 

[RuthAnn]

Two things I am going to look at are genetic issue and rate limiting precursor.

Here's something about genetic influence on the relationship of selenium to cancer.

"Single nucleotide variations (polymorphisms) in the sequence of genes can modify gene expression level and the stability and activity of the synthesized proteins. For example, a proline-to-leucine transition caused by a specific polymorphism in the GPX1gene (rs1050450 C>T) is associated with reduced GPx1 enzymatic activity. The description of several polymorphisms in genes encoding selenoproteins has led to evaluation of possible associations with selenium status and cancer incidence. Notably, certain polymorphisms in genes coding for selenoproteins have been associated with increased risks of gastric and colorectal cancers (reviewed in 60). Additionally, a number of studies have investigated the effect of selenoprotein polymorphisms on the relationship between selenium status and prostate cancer risk. A nested case-control study within the EPIC-Heidelberg cohort has combined genotyping for several selenoprotein variants with markers of selenium status (61). Briefly, the study showed that a GPX1 gene polymorphism (rs1050450 C>T) affected the association between selenium concentrations and prostate cancer risk. Specifically, selenium concentrations were found to be inversely associated with prostate cancer risk only among carriers of the GPX1 T allele. Additional variants in selenoprotein genes may mitigate the effect of selenium status on the risk of prostate cancer (62, 63). In another nested case-control study within the Physicians’ Health Study (PHS), individuals in the highest versus lowest quartile of selenium concentrations were found to have a reduced risk of prostate cancer-related mortality except if carrying a specific variant in 15kDa selenoprotein gene (SEP15 rs561104 G>A) (64). More research is needed to further unravel the mechanisms underlying the influence of gene-diet interactions on the risk of developing cancer."

 

[loki]

ok,the first page of the thread is really understandable and clear. on the next page it gets harder a little bit but still okay. it's the third page that drives me nuts sorry

 

[IrisRV]

ok,the first page of the thread is really understandable and clear. on the next page it gets harder a little bit but still okay. it's the third page that drives me nuts sorry

Are you thinking the thread has gone off-topic, or has it just gone too hard to understand?

 

[RuthAnn]

Oh, sorry, I cut with the in depth studies.

I take selenium, usually in the form of a couple of Brazil nuts each day.

Sometimes though that isn't enough. I think selenium deficiency might be why I get very sick from goitrogens, thiocyanate.

Thiocyanate induces cell necrosis and fibrosis in selenium- and iodine-deficient rat thyroids

 

[loki]

Are you thinking the thread has gone off-topic, or has it just gone too hard to understand?

well it's no easy stuff! nevermind

well it makes curious
what does

SEP15 rs561104 G>A)

mean for example? SEP15? Separate? G>A? Guanine Adenine? is that genetic code? why the > char? and what does "rs" mean?

 

[Croatoan]

No, it doesn't actually.

Moderator - content removed - aggressive. - Croatoan's heated comment was removed. I want to point out though, that it was in response to an earlier post which stated something was illogical without saying why which was almost sure to cause an upset.

Please watch the declarative statements - particularly those that don't provide facts to back them up. It's always best - as Loki just did - to couch statements in the first person - such as to say "I don't get this thread", I don't understand your argument, this is what I think instead something like This thread sucks, you're wrong, etc. and keep providing evidence for your assertion - with the understanding that we all come from different places and we're all not going to agree; i.e. we have to agree to disagree.

Please also consider the possibility that if the person you're interacting with is not coming around that your post will speak to many more people who are reading it - and you should aim your assertions at them.

 

[Who Me?]

What we know is that everyone responds differently to things. What works for one does not work for another.

If it was that easy we would all be doing it. Many of us have been using antioxidants and things you recommend for years. They haven't worked.

Good for you that you are better but you have no idea what any of us of have tried over the years of our illness besides what we choose to post.

 

[Croatoan]

What we know is that everyone responds differently to things. What works for one does not work for another.

If it was that easy we would all be doing it. Many of us have been using antioxidants and things you recommend for years. They haven't worked.

Good for you that you are better but you have no idea what any of us of have tried over the years of our illness besides what we choose to post.

Saying we are letting our egos get in the way of being cured because someone we don't know on a forum says so is not the problem.

Not having any respect for others choices is the problem. We are not the ones with the ego problem.

See, you still do not get it. I know we are all different which is why I look at the genetics. You cant just use any antioxidant, you have to find out WHY you are creating ROS and why you are not getting rid of it. Plus half the people in here think they are infected with something. I am saying that is wrong, a dead end, it is not the problem. i even explain why and no you do not believe me. I used to think i had all these viral things as well because I had all the symptoms. But I did not take any antivirals or antibacterials and I AM BETTER. It is not that I do not respect your choices, I do not think you are right because you are not better. That fact that I am better means nothing to you and that is ignorance.

Not just "good for me", why not ask what I did differently than everyone else? Because I am doing something different. But again, you do not ask. THAT is your ego.

I do not have an answer, I have a method. THAT is the difference.

 

[Croatoan]

What we know is that everyone responds differently to things. What works for one does not work for another.

And you are not asking WHY, why do we respond differently to things if we have the same disorder. I am telling you why, it is our genetics, I know how to look at the genetics to see where weaknesses might be. This is not a one day fix, it took me three months to do this on my own, it took hard work and trouble shooting and feeling bad sometimes. But you can use my experience if you want and save time.

 

[Strike me lucky]

Plus half the people in here think they are infected with something. I am saying that is wrong, a dead end, it is not the problem. i even explain why and no you do not believe me. I used to think i had all these viral things as well because I had all the symptoms. But I did not take any antivirals or antibacterials and I AM BETTER. It is not that I do not respect your choices, I do not think you are right because you are not better.

So the big red pussy spots i get on my head when i stop antivirals arent varicella virus but ros??
I feel better on antivirals but worse when i stop and this correlates with blood work and increase in t cells with pathology notes saying a viral infection but they are wrong.

Even though i take a broad range of antioxidants, water and lipid soluble, i cant say they have helped more than antivirals. I cant say they have done anything but i hope they are preventing or reducing damage from oxidative stress.

We are all different and you cant possibly know what else is going on with other people. Oxidative theory has been beaten to death in cfs and many have tried and still do treat it. You cant seem to accept it doesnt work for everyone.

Theres much smarter cfs researchers than all is combined who have treated cfs patients for over 30 years but you found the goose that layed on golden egg within a short time frame??

 

[Croatoan]

So the big red pussy spots i get on my head when i stop antivirals arent varicella virus but ros??
I feel better on antivirals but worse when i stop and this correlates with blood work and increase in t cells with pathology notes saying a viral infection but they are wrong.

Even though i take a broad range of antioxidants, water and lipid soluble, i cant say they have helped more than antivirals. I cant say they have done anything but i hope they are preventing or reducing damage from oxidative stress.

We are all different and you cant possibly know what else is going on with other people. Oxidative theory has been beaten to death in cfs and many have tried and still do treat it. You cant seem to accept it doesnt work for everyone.

Theres much smarter cfs researchers than all is combined who have treated cfs patients for over 30 years but you found the goose that layed on golden egg within a short time frame??

Think about it, why do you get chicken pox outbreaks when other people do not? I am not saying that antivirals do not help,l I am saying that pathogens are not the root cause, that the root cause is oxidative stress that makes pathogens able to proliferate because of the dampened phagocyte response.

You say the oxidative theory has been beaten to death but it has not. How many of you know that high dose riboflavin decreases ROS?

Yes, I have found the golden egg, it is right here in my hand, but you just cannot see it. Instead of doubting me why not investigate my method? That is your ignorance, you would probably have laughed at a postal clerk who thought he knew the secrets of the universe.

 

[Croatoan]

So the big red pussy spots i get on my head when i stop antivirals arent varicella virus but ros??

I am not saying that you do not have viral outbreaks. I am saying you cannot repress them because of oxidative stress.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165774/
One of the proteins induced by XBP1 and ATF4 (another UPR component) under conditions of severe ER stress is CHOP or GADD153 (growth arrest and DNA damage 153). CHOP is a 29-kDa protein that is a member of the C/EBP family of transcription factors; CHOP production has been primarily associated with persistent ER stress and subsequent stress-mediated apoptosis (35). But it also appears to play roles in mediating oxidative stress in mitochondria (40). In VZV-infected monolayers incubated for 48 h, CHOP was upregulated in concert with the appearance of the spliced form of XBP1 (Fig. 8B). These dual concordant results suggested that as most of the cells became infected, the conditions of ER stress in the cells became extreme.

 

[Strike me lucky]

Think about it, why do you get chicken pox outbreaks when other people do not? I am not saying that antivirals do not help,l I am saying that pathogens are not the root cause, that the root cause is oxidative stress that makes pathogens able to proliferate because of the dampened phagocyte response.

You say the oxidative theory has been beaten to death but it has not. How many of you know that high dose riboflavin decreases ROS?

Yes, I have found the golden egg, it is right here in my hand, but you just cannot see it. Instead of doubting me why not investigate my method? That is your ignorance, you would probably have laughed at a postal clerk who thought he knew the secrets of the universe.

Theres a massive big post on b2 on pr. Many used it in high doses, low doses. They were adding co-factors etc. A few felt better but i dont recall any recoveries.

I dont think theres a one treatment for all. At the moment i dont think cfs is one disease. We need to wait for more research on biomarkers etc to group patients properly.